W
wcknight
Guest
I happened to lend my book to a friend who has not returned it.
Can a crusade be justified (using the Church's doctrine) in today's modern world?
- Status
M
mike182d
Guest
One would like to think so.
W
wcknight
Guest
And in what part of your Catecism is it written, that we are to defend our faith by violent means ???
M
mike182d
Guest
Where is it written that you can’t?
C
ComradeAndrei
Guest
First things first, we want to know what “book” you have read and must have got your ideas from. You have yet to do that.
Second, what does the Church teach about legitimate self defense (and thus also, legitimate defense of your country and our True Faith)? We’ve (JSmitty and I) have stated a couple of times that the Crusades or the Church have not been “okay” with murdering people or killing in Jesus’ name just because. The Crusades were defensive wars, intended to crush the Mohammedian onslaught on our Eastern Christian brothers, and to protect the Holy Land for pilgrims. While it didn’t pan out like this, that doesn’t mean that the Popes called for them in vain.
If we hadn’t stood up for ourselves, many more of us would probably be praying toward Mecca today.
J
JSmitty2005
Guest
First off, killing does not always equal murder. We know this from the teachings of the Church and simple common sense when it comes to self-defense, capital punishment, and justified warfare. I hope you’re not calling soldiers murderers. There are times when war/killing is not only justifiable but our duty. There are times, though rare, that it would be a sin *not * to kill someone. All one has to do to see that Jesus was not a pacifist is to look to the Old Testament. Remember that Jesus is God which consequently makes Him eternal. It’s not as if God the Father created Jesus 2000 years ago. Jesus is the Creator of the universe. Also, Jesus did say, “do not think that I have come to bring peace upon the earth. I have come to bring not peace but the sword.” Finally, Romans 13:4 says this of the government: “But if you do evil, be afraid, for it does not bear the sword without purpose; it is the servant of God to inflict wrath on the evildoer.”
I will leave you with a quote from my man, G.K.:
“Idolatry is committed, not merely by setting up false gods, but also by setting up false devils; by making men afraid of war or alcohol, or economic law, when they should be afraid of spiritual corruption and cowardice.”
W
wcknight
Guest
Sorry, I don’t buy this killing for the Lord nonsense. No priest or sermon I ever heard of and no passage that I know of has ever justified such behavior.
Whatever happened to turn the other cheek, love your enemies, and all the rest of that ? I suppose that has all gone in one ear and out the other.
Cowardice and spiritual corruption ??? why then did the martyrs not rise up and kill their tormentors ??? IF as you say Christianity advocates violence in self defense, then the Christians by all rights should have attacked the Romans. Certainly these folks were no cowards by any stretch. They faced certain death without flinching.
Whatever happened to turn the other cheek, love your enemies, and all the rest of that ? I suppose that has all gone in one ear and out the other.
Cowardice and spiritual corruption ??? why then did the martyrs not rise up and kill their tormentors ??? IF as you say Christianity advocates violence in self defense, then the Christians by all rights should have attacked the Romans. Certainly these folks were no cowards by any stretch. They faced certain death without flinching.
F
fix
Guest
Is there no difference between one being martyred for the faith and a person defending an innocent one?
W
wcknight
Guest
ARE you even Catholic ???
J
JSmitty2005
Guest
I was about to ask YOU that! Haven’t you ever heard of the Church militant? If you were confirmed pre-Vat 2 you would have been confirmed as a soldier of Christ. There have always been people defending the Church whether through use of force or otherwise.
J
JSmitty2005
Guest
No. An attack by it’s very definition could not be considered self-defense.
J
JSmitty2005
Guest
I’m thrilled to hear that it’s errors are being spread.
W
wcknight
Guest
See post #21
Second, I don’t have a problem with why the pope originally called for a crusade, I do have a problem with how it was carried out and all the side issues that made the crusades a bad idea.
In the end the Holy Land (at least most of it) was taken over by the Muslims anyway. The Christians were not able to hold it as the Crusades were originally intended to do.
What is your point about what the Church teachings about self defense ? Is there a country that the Muslims are attacking ? IF there is then by all means have the Church declare a Crusade to help save it. As it stands now, I don’t see an immenet threat to call for a Crusade, and I certainly would not call for one simply because Islam is growing faster than Christianity.
J
JSmitty2005
Guest
How can you say that you agree with the original reasons for calling for a crusade yet claim they were a “bad idea”?
Hindsight is 20/20.
Why are you so hung up over countries? Do you know nothing of the harsh persecutions individual Christians face in the Middle East? Ever heard of Abdul Rahman? Well, if you haven’t, you won’t for long. He’s being executed for converting to Christianity. How about all the Churches that are bombed? Don’t you think someone should do something to protect these ancient Churches in the Holy Land not to mention the faithful that worship there? It’s not even legal to own a Bible in many of these countries!
B
Brendan
Guest
Council of Trent on the 5th Commandment
S
Steven_Merten
Guest
Hello JSmitty,
On NBC nightly news they were showing genocide presently happening in Sudan. They said that it was an attrocitie where an estimated 400,000 had been killed. There was a woman and her children, allong with the whole village on the run in Chad begging the International community to come, with force, and protect her and her people. The Sudanies guerillas were crossing the non-existant boarder into Chad and laying waste to the Sudanies refugees as the were striving to get away. The President of Chad asked for international help (military force). I am sure he would accept Crusaders from the Church if Crusaders were made available by the pope. I believe the atrocities were religion motivated.
The situation reminded me of what I think of when hearing of the Muslim movement to wipe Christianity of the map through genocide at the time of the Crusades.
I have not heard anything back from Church leaders responding to this poor woman’s plea for military protection of her family, village and people. If the world will not protect her with military force possibly the Chruch should put together and army and go on a crusade to protect her and her people.
What do you think?
On NBC nightly news they were showing genocide presently happening in Sudan. They said that it was an attrocitie where an estimated 400,000 had been killed. There was a woman and her children, allong with the whole village on the run in Chad begging the International community to come, with force, and protect her and her people. The Sudanies guerillas were crossing the non-existant boarder into Chad and laying waste to the Sudanies refugees as the were striving to get away. The President of Chad asked for international help (military force). I am sure he would accept Crusaders from the Church if Crusaders were made available by the pope. I believe the atrocities were religion motivated.
The situation reminded me of what I think of when hearing of the Muslim movement to wipe Christianity of the map through genocide at the time of the Crusades.
I have not heard anything back from Church leaders responding to this poor woman’s plea for military protection of her family, village and people. If the world will not protect her with military force possibly the Chruch should put together and army and go on a crusade to protect her and her people.
What do you think?
J
JSmitty2005
Guest
Steven Merten:
Speaking of the poll, I’m kind of disturbed at how many people think that the original crusades weren’t justifiable. If you voted that way, what led you to such a conclusion? Also, have you read any Catholic apologetics material on the subject or is your only knowledge of it based on what you learned in high school?
Let me just say that I voted for choice ‘D’ in the poll.
Speaking of the poll, I’m kind of disturbed at how many people think that the original crusades weren’t justifiable. If you voted that way, what led you to such a conclusion? Also, have you read any Catholic apologetics material on the subject or is your only knowledge of it based on what you learned in high school?
S
Steven_Merten
Guest
Hello JSmitty,Let me just say that I voted for choice ‘D’ in the poll.
Speaking of the poll, I’m kind of disturbed at how many people think that the original crusades weren’t justifiable. If you voted that way, what led you to such a conclusion? Also, have you read any Catholic apologetics material on the subject or is your only knowledge of it based on what you learned in high school?
I voted yes. There can be a just war.
I have heard Catholics claiming that no Pope has designated any war, or situation, in the twentieth century as justifying war. I have asked for instances where the Church has deemed a war, or situation where atrocities were being committed, as justifying a war but no one has come up with any. Plenty of examples where Catholics tell me that the Church clearly deems a war as unjust but no examples of the Church confirming a just war, or calling for a just war or deeming a situation as just cause for war . This amaizes me. Nazi atrocities, Serb atrocities, Rawanda, Cambodia and now Sudan and no examples of a situation where the Church considers it a just cause for war. Wow!
The crusades are not alone when it comes to disturbing me as to just what is not being deemed as a just war.
C
cynic
Guest
would it be legal to own a Koran after the “Crusade” was finished?
W
wcknight
Guest
There is a HUGE difference between, the Church teaching that some wars may be justifiable, and the Church actually advocating or intructing its members to go to war.
There have been popes in the past like the crusades and during the Holy Roman empire who encouraged taking military actions, but that has long disappeared and rightly so.
No pope has advocated violence in the last hundred years. Even against the atrocities of the Nazis, the Pope never encouraged Catholics to kill nazis. The pope supported the allies but NOT with military supplies or guns, but with encouragement. He never told priest or nuns to arm themselves.
You guys are living in the 21 century, but you are advocaing a middle ages ideology. The Church does not and should not create a standing army. Talk to any priest or bishop, and they will tell you the same thing. Violence goes contrary to the teachings of Our Lord.
There have been popes in the past like the crusades and during the Holy Roman empire who encouraged taking military actions, but that has long disappeared and rightly so.
No pope has advocated violence in the last hundred years. Even against the atrocities of the Nazis, the Pope never encouraged Catholics to kill nazis. The pope supported the allies but NOT with military supplies or guns, but with encouragement. He never told priest or nuns to arm themselves.
You guys are living in the 21 century, but you are advocaing a middle ages ideology. The Church does not and should not create a standing army. Talk to any priest or bishop, and they will tell you the same thing. Violence goes contrary to the teachings of Our Lord.
- Status