Can a family with 2 IVF babies convert?

[BamaRider]

Hypothectical question, but real world.

Can a married couple, (which in this day and time you must qualify they are man and woman) with 2 IVF children enter the Catholic Church?

 

[Tietjen]

Hypothectical question, but real world.

Can a married couple, (which in this day and time you must qualify they are man and woman) with 2 IVF children enter the Catholic Church?

Absolutely!

 

[LilyM]

Absolutely!

Absolutely, that is, if they assent to Church teaching on the problematic nature of IVF and don’t intend to use it again in future.

 

[BamaRider]

First I asked-

Can a married couple, (which in this day and time you must qualify they are man and woman) with 2 IVF children enter the Catholic Church?

And Tietjen answered

Absolutely!

That is what I thought. Now we come to the more diffiult aspect. This couple knows not Catholic teaching on this issue. But in their road to Rome, they will be confronted with Church doctrine, and basically will be told the birth of their babies was illicit.

This is not so hypothetical, I know such a couple, but they have made no serious mention of joining the Catholic Church, they call themselves Christian, but they are not going to church anywhere. They are middle aged, affluent (house hold income prolly 300k annually) with 2 beautiful children, a boy 14, and a little girl 11. The children are smart, cute, social, and well behaved, but not baptized. They are a nice family.

They often ask me questions about the Church, and I don’t think it would not take much to have all 4 in instruction. (IMHO) I have been somewhat less than enthusiastic with my answers because I know the situation. I don’t know how they handle being told IVF is a bad thing and should be avoided, when the 2 beautiful children they have would not be here without it. They tried many years to get pregnant, and the procedures they undertook cost many thousands of dollars.

And what do you tell the children? I don’t know if they know how they got here or not. Maybe they don’t, but you can’t assume the question won’t come up. I’m sure the extended family knows, and a good chance they find out via a cousin, or aunt.

They are going to be asked to believe in a teaching, that if followed, means they are not here. I don’t know how that would work.

This family is the poster child of the IVF folks. It is a powerful and convincing statement for someone NOT catcheized well, it even caused me to think a second or two. I know the Church is right in Her teaching, it is the correct way to go, and I fully accept it, but still, when you see these kids and family you think.

I’d like to bring this family home, and outside of this issue it would be a easy conversion. But I don’t have the experience to close the deal, because I don’t know how to address this issue without chasing them off.

 

[Jimdandy]

Perhaps you could just offer to take them to Church with you one Sunday-and not broach the subject of IVF unless asked.
And if asked, just explain as simply as possible that the biggest problem with IVF is with the embryos that are never carried to term, that most are destroyed at some point-then refer them to a kind-hearted Priest.

They and their children should be welcomed with opened arms

The family they have is a gift from God-as is all life.

What joy you may have in helping this family!

 

[Tietjen]

That is what I thought. Now we come to the more diffiult aspect. This couple knows not Catholic teaching on this issue. But in their road to Rome, they will be confronted with Church doctrine, and basically will be told the birth of their babies was illicit.

The way in which they went about it was wrong. That should not be confused with the actual children. The children are just as precious in the sight of God as any other children. I think that it really should be stressed to the couple that the Church will NOT view their children as somehow being less than any other child. It is simply a matter of the end not justifying the means. It doesn’t detract from the children in anyway however.

And what do you tell the children? I don’t know if they know how they got here or not. Maybe they don’t, but you can’t assume the question won’t come up. I’m sure the extended family knows, and a good chance they find out via a cousin, or aunt.

I don’t see the big deal at this point. If it even needs to be explained to the children, they should be told that they are loved, that they are no different than any other child, etc. Reassure them, but if it were me, I probably wouldn’t even bring it up unless they asked. It’s water under the bridge at this point and they have done absolutely nothing wrong so they certainly should not be made to feel as though they are at fault.

They are going to be asked to believe in a teaching, that if followed, means they are not here. I don’t know how that would work.

No, they aren’t. If mom and dad had engaged in pre-marital sex and had become pregnant but then married prior to the birth, that child would “be here” and would likewise be guiltless. If mom and dad were married and had children but then divorced and had been granted an annulment those children would exist and no they wouldn’t be considered bast*@ds. Again, the children would be blameless. The same applies here. The Church will not view these Children as being less.

This family is the poster child of the IVF folks. It is a powerful and convincing statement for someone NOT catcheized well, it even caused me to think a second or two. I know the Church is right in Her teaching, it is the correct way to go, and I fully accept it, but still, when you see these kids and family you think.

… I would probably think what a fantastic family. Period, end of discussion.

I’d like to bring this family home, and outside of this issue it would be a easy conversion. But I don’t have the experience to close the deal, because I don’t know how to address this issue without chasing them off.

The way to address it is to not make the children out to be bad. The parents messed up. It should be explained to them why the Church sees IVF as being evil. They should certainly be reassured that neither the Church nor God hold the sins of the parents against the children. If they can appreciate the Church’s position on the subject and conclude that they were indeed wrong to use IVF, they should go to confession. Once absolved, the case is closed.

PS - You and I are in sales… Management is responsible for closing the deals.

 

[HOPEFUL_IN_UK]

I figure children concieved via IVF are about like children conceived out of wedlock. In no way is there a stigma on the child and there’s no reason to assume that they’re anything but a blessing, loved by God.

I do know people who say they had to leave the Catholic Church because some priest told them that a child conceived “are an abomination.” I think they’re making that up, and they’re just peeved that their priest didn’t clap his hands and say, “Oh, yes! What a wonderful thing to do! GO YOU!”

 

[Matt_Collins]

But I don’t have the experience to close the deal, because I don’t know how to address this issue without chasing them off.

I see it as just another example of how God, in his fatherly generosity, blesses us by using our mistakes and even our sins to bring good into the world and into our lives.

 

[newbetx]

I’d like to bring this family home, and outside of this issue it would be a easy conversion. But I don’t have the experience to close the deal, because I don’t know how to address this issue without chasing them off.

Personal opinion… you are making a bigger deal of it than it is. It’s good to have the concern, really. I think most people that truely understand WHY, won’t have a problem understanding that they messed up. So as part of the attempt to bring them into the Catholic faith, this subject must be clearly discussed. If they don’t either want to be Catholic (for this or other reasons) at least you have tried.

My suggestion is to do what most Catholics have done and work on the other aspects of the Truth. Once accepted, the issue of IVF can easily be explained through TOB and the rest is up to them.

 

[Cari]

Any suggestion that children conceived in some “irregular” manner are an abomination or sinful or what have you flies completely in the face of the Catholic pro-life stance which holds that ALL life is sacred.
(I, too, doubt claims I’ve heard of priests telling parents that their children conceived through IVF or pre-maritially are somehow bad in some way.)

Stressing the totality of Catholic regard for life might help to ease any tension the couple might have when facing up to the sinful nature of the process of IVF.

 

[lovesMary]

I know a couple here in my parish that have twins conceived with IVF. The husband is a Eucharistic Minister. I heard that the wife was extremely depressed about not being able to conceive so they resorted to IVF. It was a last chance for them since she was over 40 and he in his early 50s. I think they had the blessing of the priest who tends to lean liberal in some areas.

I think the wife still grapples with depression. The twins are 3 now, they are adorable.

 

[hasikelee]

That’s like wondering if a teen mother and her baby can convert.

 

[Starwynd]

What’s an IVF child?

 

[lovesMary]

IVF stands for InVitro Fertilization. In other words, a test tube baby.

 

[gardenswithkids]

… Now we come to the more diffiult aspect. This couple knows not Catholic teaching on this issue. But in their road to Rome, they will be confronted with Church doctrine, and basically will be told the birth of their babies was illicit…

Conversion involves looking at what we have done in the past from a different perspective. Problems often come when people face Church teachings that hit them personally. It is much easier if those teachings are presented as part of the whole. The Church teaches that children and fertility are blessings from God. That strikes at the sexual practices of most people in Western society. The Church teachings about IVF fit right along with our teachings about contraception, abortion and other matters of morality.

No doubt this couple dearly loves their children and struggled in the past with infertility. Infertile couples understand better than most couples that children are blessings. By the time this couple reaches the point of conversion, they may also have struggled with the knowledge that they created many other embryos besides the two that resulted in live birth. By loving their children and growing in faith, they may might come to a deeper respect for the children who are lost or destroyed in the IVF process.

Catholicism is not just a group of isolated teachings. The teachings interconnect. God, in His wisdom and mercy, took something as horrible as the Crucifixion and redeemed us through that. On the cross Jesus said, “Forgive them Father for they know not what they do.” This couple did not fully comprehend the moral problems of IVF. Before addressing what will likely be the hardest moral issues from their past, make sure they understand the very basic of our faith: God brings glory and new life out of sin and death.

 

[rwoehmke]

I cannot conceive of any reason why they would be treated differently than any other family coming into the Church. The real problem is dealing with people in invalid marriages and trying to get those messes strightened out. If they didn’t know any better at the time about IVF they wouldn’t even have that to confess in first penance. Why feel the need for “kid gloves” or treating them like lepers?

 

[BamaRider]

I’ve been out of town all day and just now able to get online to respond.

Thanks for the posts, and advice, I’m sorry if I left the impression the Church might have problems in this situation, I knew She wouldn’t.

I was thinking more in line as to how* they *might handle it. I don’t want to alienate this family to the Church. They are a family any parish would love to have on the roster.

Would it be better for them to learn IVF teaching informaly on my court or theirs? I know the what the Church says on this, I can communicate it, but my style tends to be more “abrupt.” and might not be the best suited in this situation.

Would a Catholic mother be better equipped to handle this?

Look, it won’t hurt my feelings to hand this off to someone better suited,* 4* converts could hang in the balance. They are the kind of family people love to be around, what a asset they would be to my parish, and the Chuch as a whole.

 

[gardenswithkids]

…Would it be better for them to learn IVF teaching informaly on my court or theirs? I know the what the Church says on this, I can communicate it, but my style tends to be more “abrupt.” and might not be the best suited in this situation….

You answered your own question. Unless they specifically ask you, “What does the Church teach about IVF?” you don’t bring this subject to their attention. When inviting people to know Christ and His Church more fully, don’t start with the area that is likely to be most difficult for them. Their IVF was done in the past; they are not actively sinning.

One of the Church documents on human sexuality, (the Vademeccum), distinguishes between the “law of gradualness” verses “gradualness of the law”. You don’t have to hit every potential convert or poorly catechised Catholic with every Church teaching all at once. I suspect that is why many choose Protestantism over Catholicism–Protestants often stick to the basic truths about Jesus. If you want to convert these people, teach them the truth about Jesus and His Church. The rest of the moral teachings may fall in place with time.

 

[bilop]

I think IVF may be one of the most dangerous sins to the sousl, exactly because of what you state here.

How hard must it be to repent of a sin that led to your desperately wanted children.

Our modern world keeps inventing new ways to tempt people to their downfall.

God bless