Can a Franciscan Priest celebrate mass in a different diocese without permission from local ordinary?

[comrade1789]

As stated in thread, Can a Franciscan Priest celebrate mass in a different diocese without permission from local ordinary? Ex. A Conventual Franciscan Priest from Austin, TX celebrating at a Carmelite Monastery in Akron, OH. Also, if he cannot celebrate mass in a different diocese without permission from the local ordinary, if he chooses to do so, is the Mass Valid but not Licit?

Thanks.

P.S., the example given has places/communities changed for discretion’s sake.

Thanks.

 

[Cristiano]

Celebration of the Mass in a diocesan parish is subject to different rule than the celebration of the Mass in a convent. Religious priests and religious houses are not under the authority of a diocesan bishop. Any priest, religious or not, must have the permission of the local diocesan bishop to celebrate Mass in a parish; however that does not apply to convents or monasteries, the religious superiors decide who can celebrate Mass in their houses.

 

[Joe_5859]

Hopefully Brother JR comes in and answers this for you.

Generally speaking, a Mass is valid by virtue of the being celebrated by a validly ordained priest using the proper matter and form. Even if a priest does not have the necessary permissions, the Mass would be valid, even if illicit.

I’m not sure about this particular case, though.

 

[Mrs_Sally]

In this case, since the Mass happened in a religious house, the superior of that house was the person who needs to give permission.

Was the Mass private (only for the house, or specific invited people) or public (anyone could come)? Did you attend?

 

[Julia_Mae]

As stated in thread, Can a Franciscan Priest celebrate mass in a different diocese without permission from local ordinary? Ex. A Conventual Franciscan Priest from Austin, TX celebrating at a Carmelite Monastery in Akron, OH. Also, if he cannot celebrate mass in a different diocese without permission from the local ordinary, if he chooses to do so, is the Mass Valid but not Licit?

Thanks.

P.S., the example given has places/communities changed for discretion’s sake.

Thanks.

Yes, he can.

 

[comrade1789]

Celebration of the Mass in a diocesan parish is subject to different rule than the celebration of the Mass in a convent. Religious priests and religious houses are not under the authority of a diocesan bishop. Any priest, religious or not, must have the permission of the local diocesan bishop to celebrate Mass in a parish; however that does not apply to convents or monasteries, the religious superiors decide who can celebrate Mass in their houses.

Thank you all for your replies. What if the religious house in question is not an Institute, but rather a Public Association still under the Bishop? And are there any Canons, etc that I can be referred to?

Thank you all for your help.

 

[Joe_5859]

Thank you all for your replies. What if the religious house in question is not an Institute, but rather a Public Association still under the Bishop? And are there any Canons, etc that I can be referred to?

Thank you all for your help.

I’m not familiar enough with the ins-and-outs to answer your question specifically, but I would just say that, generally speaking, priests know what to do about celebrating Mass on the road. I would always err on the side of presuming the priest did what he was supposed to do in order to celebrate Mass licitly.

 

[Cristiano]

Thank you all for your replies. What if the religious house in question is not an Institute, but rather a Public Association still under the Bishop? And are there any Canons, etc that I can be referred to?

Thank you all for your help.

Here you are describing a religious house that is really not a religiuos house. Just read CCL 608 to 615, you might get a better idea of how things work.

 

[ConstantineTG]

As stated in thread, Can a Franciscan Priest celebrate mass in a different diocese without permission from local ordinary? Ex. A Conventual Franciscan Priest from Austin, TX celebrating at a Carmelite Monastery in Akron, OH. Also, if he cannot celebrate mass in a different diocese without permission from the local ordinary, if he chooses to do so, is the Mass Valid but not Licit?

Thanks.

P.S., the example given has places/communities changed for discretion’s sake.

Thanks.

If it is within their own house and not a public Liturgy, then yes. But if they are opening it to the public, they need permission (ie. faculties) from the Local Ordinary.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Celebration of the Mass in a diocesan parish is subject to different rule than the celebration of the Mass in a convent. Religious priests and religious houses are not under the authority of a diocesan bishop. Any priest, religious or not, must have the permission of the local diocesan bishop to celebrate Mass in a parish; however that does not apply to convents or monasteries, the religious superiors decide who can celebrate Mass in their houses.

Don’t forget that if they are opening the Mass to the public, they do need permission. The jurisdiction of the Bishop is the territory and the faithful within it. While the religious house is not part of his territory, if the faithful who belongs to his territory will be ministered, then it needs his permission.

 

[Julia_Mae]

Don’t forget that if they are opening the Mass to the public, they do need permission. The jurisdiction of the Bishop is the territory and the faithful within it. While the religious house is not part of his territory, if the faithful who belongs to his territory will be ministered, then it needs his permission.

I don’t think so, but I don’t have a reference, just anecdotal evidence. Do you have a Canon or something from the GIRM? He needs faculties if he is in a parish, but I don’t think in a religious house that just lets people come to their Masses, especially if they run a retreat house.

 

[ConstantineTG]

I don’t think so, but I don’t have a reference, just anecdotal evidence. Do you have a Canon or something from the GIRM? He needs faculties if he is in a parish, but I don’t think in a religious house that just lets people come to their Masses, especially if they run a retreat house.

If it is a retreat then it is still considered private. If it is a regularly scheduled Sunday Mass open to the public, then they need permission.

I learned this from Bro. JR. I don’t have the necessary canons.

 

[Julia_Mae]

If it is a retreat then it is still considered private. If it is a regularly scheduled Sunday Mass open to the public, then they need permission.

I learned this from Bro. JR. I don’t have the necessary canons.

I see. So, it’s not about non-religious being there, per se, it’s some sort of technical jurisdictional deal. Thanks, I imagine Br JR knows whereof he speaks.

 

[Marauder]

Yes it is all about authority. Franciscan priests can say Mass within their community and offer confession to members of their community as long as they have permission of their superior. The same would apply to saying Mass and/or confession within the walls of other exempt religious communities. In that case they would need the permission of both their own superior and the superior of the other community.

To offer Mass to people outside of the community on a regular basis the community needs permission of the local Bishop. From what I understand they don’t necessarily say which priests can offer Mass, just that the friary/church, etc. has permission. The local bishop also has to give permission for the community to be able to reserve the Eucharist in a tabernacle and for the priests to offer confession to those outside of the community. I believe, but I am not 100% sure of this, that a pastor of a parish may also give permission for a Franciscan priest to say Mass at their parish without having to go to the Bishop, but off course the Bishop could always put his foot down and say no.

P.S. This is all assuming that the local Bishop at some time in the history of the diocese has given permission for this particular Franciscan Order to operate within its boundaries.