Can a God fearing Catholic own guns?

[LongingSoul]

Sure they can. It is called police reports.

And there have been quite a number of independent studies, that list between 3 million defensive (Florida State University - Kleck) uses down to about 85,000 (Violence Policy Institute)

The two high ends each have issues with they way the count what constitutes a ‘use’

But the most common number offered is about 1 million defensive uses of firearms each year in the US.

scholarlycommons.law.northwestern.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=6938&context=jclc

It seems very much like a statistic that is clutching at straws. If it is meant to demonstrate the value of guns for self defense it surely must have to be juxtaposed with the statistics demonstrating the violence and death that gun use causes in the society.

It reminds me of the punter who comes home from the races saying “I won a hundred bucks today” without divulging that he had bet a thousand bucks to get that amount.

 

[ARSpade]

It seems very much like a statistic that is clutching at straws. If it is meant to demonstrate the value of guns for self defense it surely must have to be juxtaposed with the statistics demonstrating the violence and death that gun use causes in the society.

Even if you justapose those statistics, defensive gun use comes out way, way on top.

Of course, I’m biased. I stopped a domestic violence situation with my concealed carry piece. I suppose you’d think it was better that both the victim and I ended up in the hospital (or dead), because, hey, no gun related violence and death then (the much larger than I Marine NCO had already broken three of his ex-girlfriend’s ribs when I stumbled into the situation. He wasn’t armed with anything but his fists).

 

[LongingSoul]

Even if you justapose those statistics, defensive gun use comes out way, way on top.

Of course, I’m biased. I stopped a domestic violence situation with my concealed carry piece. I suppose you’d think it was better that both the victim and I ended up in the hospital (or dead), because, hey, no gun related violence and death then (the much larger than I Marine NCO had already broken three of his ex-girlfriend’s ribs when I stumbled into the situation. He wasn’t armed with anything but his fists).

For every “ex girlfriend saved by a gun” anecdote, there is a “20 gunned dead elementary school children” anecdote. That’s the question being posed to the gun culture. We have guns to defend ourselves meaning a gun rich society, meaning more guns for criminals and their aptitude for destruction, meaning more guns needed for ‘good’ people to defend themselves, meaning more guns in society for the criminals to access ad infinitum.

 

[Brendan]

Even if you justapose those statistics, defensive gun use comes out way, way on top.

Exactly, taking the 1997 stats of approx. 1,000,000 defensive uses of firearms, 8800 firearm homicdes, and 19,000 firearm suicides

That give a ration of 37 defenses using firearms for every firearm fatality.

At when you take scenarios like the Dartmouth murders, it shows how some of those fatalities could have been prevented if the person had a firearm.

For those outside the US, there were some murders at a college (Dartmouth). Two men armed themselves with knives and set out to deliberately murder.

The first house they stopped by, one hid in the bushes, while one rang the doorbell. The assailant pretended to be a stranded motorist. He was disturbingly insistent on entering the house, so the homeowner showed the assailant that he was armed (Glock handgun).

The men fled.

The homeowners attempted to call the police and found that their phone lines had been cut.

The next victims were not so lucky. They were unarmed and ended up being killed.

So the stats on that crime spree would be mixed. One successful attack repulsed, and two people murdered. The armed victims survived, the unarmed victims did not.

 

[styrgwillidar]

For every “ex girlfriend saved by a gun” anecdote, there is a “20 gunned dead elementary school children” anecdote. That’s the question being posed to the gun culture. We have guns to defend ourselves meaning a gun rich society, meaning more guns for criminals and their aptitude for destruction, meaning more guns needed for ‘good’ people to defend themselves, meaning more guns in society for the criminals to access ad infinitum.

No.

The mass shootings are actually on the decline. But they certainly get more press than- homeowner confronts burglar and prevents robbery.

Under the Clinton administration the-] FBI /-] Justice Department was tasked to do a study on gun use, what they found was that firearms are used to prevent crime ~4 times more often than to commit crime. ETA: 3.1 million owners using guns defensively according to their own criteria, if they used the methodology of an earlier study it would have been reduced to 1.5 million.

Criminals access guns regardless of what the laws of the society are. Mexico has very strict gun laws- yet the criminals have no problem accessing them and committing far more violence than in the US.

In China, there are mass stabbings in schools vice mass shootings. Same issue- violent people willing to commit atrocities with vulnerable victims.

Note, in the US, those areas with the strictest gun laws have the highest rates of violence. The laws have their intended affect, indeed the only affect gun laws can have-- they disarm the law abiding and make them more vulnerable.

 

[Electricaleng]

For every “ex girlfriend saved by a gun” anecdote, there is a “20 gunned dead elementary school children” anecdote. That’s the question being posed to the gun culture. We have guns to defend ourselves meaning a gun rich society, meaning more guns for criminals and their aptitude for destruction, meaning more guns needed for ‘good’ people to defend themselves, meaning more guns in society for the criminals to access ad infinitum.

Bull. The media just hypes up the horrible cases and doesn’t barely mention the ones where people save lives with their guns. Criminals will have guns and other weapons whether guns are legal or not. gun control only hurts law abiding citizens. But I won’t get anywhere with you and your gut knee jerk reaction to some tragic bit relatively issolated tragities we have had.

 

[Brendan]

For every “ex girlfriend saved by a gun” anecdote, there is a “20 gunned dead elementary school children” anecdote. That’s the question being posed to the gun culture. We have guns to defend ourselves meaning a gun rich society, meaning more guns for criminals and their aptitude for destruction, meaning more guns needed for ‘good’ people to defend themselves, meaning more guns in society for the criminals to access ad infinitum.

Perhaps there is a reason that Australia and the UK have MUCH higher violent crime rates than the US.

Criminals have nothing to fear

And criminals will get guns. I’ve built one from scratch myself. In my case, it was a replica of a 16th century flintlock that I wanted for reenacting. Not exactly something that you can get at a local sporting goods store.

But I could have just as easily built a submachine gun. The British were kind enough to develop a submachine gun that could be build in a garage shop. It was called the STEN

In post war Palestine, under the British mandate, the Israeli Zionists created thousands of them. They did so in the basement of a laudrymat that serviced the British officers. The noise of the washers covered up the noise from the drills and grinders in the basement

So illegal firearms were made by the thousands literally right under the noses of the very officers who were assigned to make sure that weapons did not fall into the hands of the Zionists

All that can be done using skills taught in any high school shop class, using tools you can purchase at any good hardware store and using materials available in any auto junk shop.

So how exactly do you intent that criminals not get firearms.

FYI, if you want your own STEN, here are the plans, downloadable for free. You can build it in the comfort of your own garage using a drill, a bench grinder, a vice, some files and good hammer

milsurps.com/content.php?r=422-Blueprints-for-The-STEN-MKII-(complete-machine-plans

 

[Brendan]

Bull. The media just hypes up the horrible cases and doesn’t barely mention the ones where people save lives with their guns. .

Exactly,

In the case of the Dartmouth murders that I listed above, the fact that another couple were targeted, and survived by using their firearm only came out several weeks after the murders, and after all the media hype died out.

It barely got a mention at all

Likewise for the 2012 movie theatre shooting near Denver. Colorado has very permissive gun laws.

But the teatre chosen by James Holmes was not the one nearest his house, or even the next one, or the one after that. In fact it was several miles away.

But what it WAS was the closest theatre that had a ban on carrying handguns.

So Holmes picked a theatre where he was positive that no one would be carrying defensive firearms

But that fact was barely reported either.

 

[Brendan]

Mexico has very strict gun laws- yet the criminals have no problem accessing them and committing far more violence than in the US…

And Switzerland issues fully automatic assault rifles (and 200 rounds of ammo) to every adult male, aged 18-40

And after 40, you can purchase your rifle off of the government.

And it has one of the lowest crime rates in Europe.

 

[LongingSoul]

Perhaps there is a reason that Australia and the UK have MUCH higher violent crime rates than the US.

Criminals have nothing to fear

“Faking waves: how the NRA and pro-gun Americans abuse Australian crime stats”

theconversation.com/faking-waves-how-the-nra-and-pro-gun-americans-abuse-australian-crime-stats-11678

When gun advocates use Australian crime stats, they sometimes employ a number of misleading tricks and sleights of hand. These tricks are common to several politically charged debates, and are a form of pseudo-science. Let’s look at these tricks in action…

Claims that Australian gun laws have increased crime are pure spin and deception. They say more about American partisan politics than about the reality in Australia.

 

[Brendan]

“Faking waves: how the NRA and pro-gun Americans abuse Australian crime stats”

theconversation.com/faking-waves-how-the-nra-and-pro-gun-americans-abuse-australian-crime-stats-11678

Noticed I discussed ‘violent crime’, which is not just firearm fatalities, but all violent crime, robbery, rape, battery etc…

I am fully willing to accept that Australia has substantially lower firearms fatalities, but it also has 3 times the number of rapes per capital that the US does, and twice as many robberies

Why are rapes 3 times higher in Australia than they are in the US?

 

[LongingSoul]

Noticed I discussed ‘violent crime’, which is not just firearm fatalities, but all violent crime, robbery, rape, battery etc…

I am fully willing to accept that Australia has substantially lower firearms fatalities, but it also has 3 times the number of rapes per capital that the US does, and twice as many robberies

Why are rapes 3 times higher in Australia than they are in the US?

The rape statistics have also been debunked and I’ll have to have a search for that article. In Australia we don’t actually have a ‘rape’ category. It is identified as ‘sexual assault’ and includes cases of non penetrative assault of a sexual nature. Because there is a high degree of conviction as well as the police and courts encouraging people to report… the figures reflect that dynamic. In the USA there is a much lower conviction rate for rapes and police are supposedly less sympathetic to rape victims.

Hang on and I’ll try and find the data.

 

[dans0622]

Can a God fearing Catholic own guns? As far as the Catholic Church is concerned, certainly. There is no law prohibiting it. I don’t know of any ecclesiastical law, at any time, which prohibited laity from owning weapons in general or guns specifically.

In the past (the middle ages, for instance), clerics were not allowed to carry weapons but even in the 1917 Code, a cleric could carry a weapon if he had a justifiable cause (feared for his safety). In the current, ecclesiastical law, there is no such prohibition at all and so clerics can carry weapons (in accord with applicable civil law). The Church has obviously become more liberal in this regard.

Dan

 

[LongingSoul]

The rape statistics have also been debunked and I’ll have to have a search for that article. In Australia we don’t actually have a ‘rape’ category. It is identified as ‘sexual assault’ and includes cases of non penetrative assault of a sexual nature. Because there is a high degree of conviction as well as the police and courts encouraging people to report… the figures reflect that dynamic. In the USA there is a much lower conviction rate for rapes and police are supposedly less sympathetic to rape victims.

Hang on and I’ll try and find the data.

OK, Australia doesn’t distinguish between rape and non penetrative sexual assault. The court defines sexual assault as -

The ABS defines sexual assault as a physical assault of a sexual nature, directed
toward another person who:
• does not give consent, or
• gives consent as a result of intimidation or fraud; or
• is legally deemed incapable of giving consent because of youth or incapacity.

In 2011, there were 17,238 victims of sexual assaults, or 76 victims per 100,000
population.

aic.gov.au/media_library/publications/facts/2012/facts12.pdf

USA defines rape as -

“Penetration, no matter how slight, of the vagina or anus with any body part or object, or oral penetration by a sex organ of another person, without the consent of the victim.”

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_in_the_United_States

In 2012 there were 26.6 victims per 100,000.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_statistics#mediaviewer/File:Rape_rate_per_100,000_-country_comparison-_United_Nations_2012.png

RAINN reports that overall -

293,066 victims (age 12 or older) of rape and sexual assault each year.

rainn.org/get-information/statistics/frequency-of-sexual-assault

The total rape and sexual assault victims per year in the US is **91.8 per 100,000
**

So this clearly demonstrates the way in which these stats are manipulated by the pro gun lobby to make a case that isn’t.

 

[styrgwillidar]

thetruthaboutguns.com/2015/03/robert-farago/this-is-what-happens-to-a-disarmed-populace-their-priests-are-murdered/

Well, Mexico which has very strict gun laws and:

For the sixth consecutive year, Mexico tops the list in murders and disappearances of Catholic priests in Latin America. What must be established, murders and kidnappings of priests receive little attention outside regional reporting hubs. It is a perplexing, how a story of dozens of priests being murdered by cartels during two administrations goes unrecognized. For example . . .

 

[Adamski]

I find it hard to believe if one is Christian/Catholic to need or want to possess a gun. Gun=high potential for murder and accidental killings. I don’t see the need nor pleasure in it. Please explain the need for guns in and about the house. Yes, in America we do have the right to own guns but it seems so antichristian having one or many around.

Think If someone attacked your family you are responsible for them. If you are a man with a family you must own some.

 

[RedSoxWife]

I find it hard to believe if one is Christian/Catholic to need or want to possess a gun. Gun=high potential for murder and accidental killings. I don’t see the need nor pleasure in it. Please explain the need for guns in and about the house. Yes, in America we do have the right to own guns but it seems so antichristian having one or many around.

I grew up with guns in our house, which to me seemed far safer than not having them when we had bears and mountain lions wandering through the backyard and the mountain lions frequently went after our animals, especially the horses. And when I was twelve and was outside working with the horses and I heard a mountain lion scream nearby I was most definitely glad that my father had guns.

The vast majority of legally owned firearms in this country aren’t used for murder or in accidental killings.

 

[PrayerShark]

The vast majority of legally owned firearms in this country aren’t used for murder or in accidental killings.

Legal or not, 60% of homicides in North America are committed with firearms (when you weight this by the overall homicide rate, the US is making up the vast majority of that percentage). Furthermore, you have a firearm homicide rate equivalent to Zimbabwe, Uruguay and Argentina, which is frankly disgraceful for a “first-world” country (UNODC, 2011).

 

[PrayerShark]

This is how some of you are selling this:

For a person and their family to live and feel safe in the United States, they’ll need to own a gun?!?

 

[chevalier]

Never owned a gun but slept with knives and at one time a longer bladed weapon with every intention of using it if need be. Gotta defend yourself when you’re attacked.