Can a God Suffer Even He İncarnate in a Body?

[fhansen]

God creates fire, lights, soul i.e. God never but never get form. So you are so unaware that God did not form like fire and seen to Moses. God act and reflect on mountain like reflect on a mirror. Reflection of you on mirror is getting different form?

How can a mirror reflect something formless?

 

[devoutchristian]

1) Christ is both

truly God and truly Man. He can suffer, in fact did suffer, in His human nature (which obviously can suffer - all humans do), not His divine nature (which can not suffer). But because Christ is one person - the Second Person of the Divine Trinity, and persons suffer not natures - God suffered.

İs divine nature unaware, unconnected, unengaged with human nature. You first make God three than make Son two. Than how many are Father(God) and Holy Spirit in personality? And how many God do we have?

God is one being or essence. He has one Divine nature. In God there are three distinct persons (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) who share the same essential attributes, and who share the one Divine nature. The Son took on a human nature such that he had two natures, the human nature which was unique to him, and the Divine nature which he shares in common with the Father and the Holy Spirit. Now think about this, persons, not natures suffer, yet it is natures through which suffering occurs. Thus we say that Jesus Christ, the Divine person, suffered in his human nature, but not in his Divine nature.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Yes. Jesus suffered through hsi human will.

 

[devoutchristian]

Yes. Jesus suffered through hsi human will.

You mean his human nature.

 

[mhmtas]

Jesus posed three questions to unbelievers that answers this question;

If Islam has the wisdom of Allah from Muhammad, and Muhammad is believed to be the last and greatest prophet of Allah. Then Islam should possess the wisdom to be able to answer Jesus question as a prophet of Allah.

1. Mark 11:29-33 Jesus said to them, "I shall ask you one question. Answer me, and I will tell you by what authority I do these things. Was John’s baptism of heavenly or of human origin"?

İslam do not inform about baptism (because of not to endorse baptism ) but gives some information about John. And before geting in Heaven faithful will go in pool of Kevser and been cleare from their sins and dirt.

Quran:
And Zakariya and John, and Jesus and Elias: all in the ranks of the Righteous: 6:85

(His prayer was answered): “O Zakariya! We give thee good news of a son: His name shall be Yahyá: (John)on none by that name have We conferred distinction before.” 19: 7

. 12 (To his son came the command): “O John! take hold of the Book with might”: and We gave him Wisdom even as a youth,

1. And pity (for all creatures) as from Us, and purity: He was devout,
2. And kind to his parents, and he was not overbearing or rebellious. 9: 12-14

So We listened to him: and We granted him John: We cured his wife’s (barrenness) for him. These (three) were ever quick in doing in good works; they used to call on Us with yearning and awe, and humble themselves before Us. 21: 90

 

[mhmtas]

Jesus posed three questions to unbelievers that answers this question;

If Islam has the wisdom of Allah from Muhammad, and Muhammad is believed to be the last and greatest prophet of Allah. Then Islam should possess the wisdom to be able to answer Jesus question as a prophet of Allah.

1. Matthew 22:41-45…Jesus questioned the Pharisees, saying; "What is your opinion about the Messiah? Whose son is he? They replied “David’s”. He said to them. “How then does **David, inspired by the spirit, call him Lord”, saying; "The Lord said to my lord, Sit at my right hand until I place your enemies under your feet? If David calls him “lord,” how can he be his son?
   **

İf you reflect speechs of meaning superior to God there is no problem. İ think Christian confuse reveal which God say for himself so that is being considered as if Jesus say that for himself.
İslam give some information about Messiah:

Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honor in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to Allah."Al İmran :45

That they said (in boast), “We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah.”;- But they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:- 4:157

171 O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a Spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His messengers. Say not “Three (Trinity)” : desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is One God. Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs.

1. Christ disdaineth not to serve and worship Allah, nor do the angels, those nearest (to Allah): those who disdain His worship and are arrogant,-He will gather them all together unto Himself to (answer). 4: 171,172

They disbelieved indeed those that say that Allah is Christ the son of Mary. Say: "Who then hath the least power against Allah, if His will were to destroy Christ the son of Mary, his mother, and every one that is on the earth? For to Allah belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is between. He createth what He pleaseth. For Allah hath power over all things 5:17

Certainly they disbelieve who say: “Allah is Christ the son of Mary.” But said Christ: “O Children of Israel! worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord.” Whoever joins other gods with Allah,- Allah will forbid him the Garden, and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrong-doers be no one to help. 5:72

Christ the son of Mary was no more than a messenger; many were the messengers that passed away before him. His mother was a woman of truth. They had both to eat their (daily) food. See how Allah doth make His signs clear to them; yet see in what ways they are deluded away from the truth! 5:75

1. The Jews call Ùzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah’s curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!
2. They take their priests and their anchorites to be their lords beside Allah, and (they take as their Lord) Christ the son of Mary; yet they were commanded to worship but One God. there is no god but He. Praise and glory to Him: (Far is He) from having the partners they associate (with Him). 9:30,31

 

[fhansen]

The bottom-line message of Christianity is that only God can save man-not a merely human messiah or savior-so God came down and did it Himself. And a much higher level of of His glory was revealed by this act.

 

[fhansen]

One critical thing Jesus did was to reveal that man’s concept of God, as rather aloof and distant and angry in His righteous superiority, is a purely human perception/invention, distorted and twisted in any case. God hates sin but He’s always loved man with an extraordinarily lavish love; His apparent aloofness turns out to be the result of man preferring things that way, wanting to keep Him at arm’s length, which He’s allowed us to do. Jesus showed that God does not want to be and must not be aloof from man’s world; He must be here in our midst, in our very beings in fact, that’s the only way man can be whole, the only way he becomes righteous/just.

 

[jakasaki]

… snip…

Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honor in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to Allah."Al İmran :45

… snip …

Ayah 3.45 has always been a problem for me and I’ve questioned many Muslim posters in the previous years about it, but have never received an answer.

1 ~ Quran - Behold! the **angels **said

What “angels” - according to the Bible it was only **1 Angel **and his name is Gabriel.

Luke 1:26 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,

…

And continuing down to 30…

Luke 1:
30 And the **angel **said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.

31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name Jesus.

32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

2 ~ Quran: his name will be **Christ **Jesus,

The Bible clearly states: and shalt call his name Jesus.

There is NO mention of “**Christ **Jesus”.

Just another mistake(s) in the Quran regarding Biblical scripture.

 

[jakasaki]

I had to go back to the Quran to finish reading below 3:45 and here another gem which needs explanation.

quran.com/3

Sahih International 3:45
[And mention] when the **angels **said, "O Mary, indeed Allah gives you good tidings of a word from Him, whose name will be the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary - distinguished in this world and the Hereafter and among those brought near [to Allah ].

Sahih International 3:46
He will speak to the people in the cradle and in maturity and will be of the righteous."

Sahih International 3:47
She said, “My Lord, how will I have a child when no man has touched me?” The angel] said, "Such is Allah ; He creates what He wills. When He decrees a matter, He only says to it, ‘Be,’ and it is.

~

So Mary is being told by “the angels” in & his name will be **Messiah, Jesus **in ayah (45)

And continue reading (46) - "the angels" are gone and ONLY 1 angel is speaking.

And…

And since the Quran states that only Allah is The Lord, why is Mary calling the Angel “My Lord”…??

 

[mhmtas]

I
Sahih International 3:47
She said, “My Lord, how will I have a child when no man has touched me?” The angel] said, "Such is Allah ; He creates what He wills. When He decrees a matter, He only says to it, ‘Be,’ and it is.

~

So Mary is being told by “the angels” in & his name will be **Messiah, Jesus **in ayah (45)

And continue reading (46) - "the angels" are gone and ONLY 1 angel is speaking.

And…

And since the Quran states that only Allah is The Lord, why is Mary calling the Angel “My Lord”…??

You are so willing to fabricate Lords(Gods) which Mary said for Allah you understand as if Mary said for an angel. So what Jesus said for Allah(God) you understand as if Jesus said for himself. Attention please!

Angel of death is Azrail but there are different comments that Azrail does not this jub only himself. He is the chief of the this duty. So there maybe were more than one angels but chief of them was Gabriel.

 

[Sam_777]

God creates fire, lights, soul i.e. God never but never get form. So you are so unaware that God did not form like fire and seen to Moses. God act and reflect on mountain like reflect on a mirror. Reflection of you on mirror is getting different form?

Excuse me mhmtas, but where on earth that “reflection” addition came from !!! the Arabic and the English text is very clear:
(Quran 27:7-9):
"[Mention] when Moses said to his family, "Indeed, I have perceived a fire. I will bring you from there information or will bring you a burning torch that you may warm yourselves.
But when he came to it, he was called, "Blessed is whoever is at the fire and whoever is around it. And exalted is Allah , Lord of the worlds.
O Moses, indeed it is I - Allah , the Exalted in Might, the Wise."

 

[Sam_777]

So Mary is being told by “the angels” in & his name will be **Messiah, Jesus **in ayah (45)

And continue reading (46) - "the angels" are gone and ONLY 1 angel is speaking.

Sister in Christ, you caught them in illogical error …

And since the Quran states that only Allah is The Lord, why is Mary calling the Angel “My Lord”…??

Probably she was talking to herself instead of the Angel or another illogical error.

 

[jakasaki]

You are so willing to fabricate Lords(Gods) which Mary said for Allah you understand as if Mary said for an angel. So what Jesus said for Allah(God) you understand as if Jesus said for himself. Attention please!

Angel of death is Azrail but there are different comments that Azrail does not this jub only himself. He is the chief of the this duty. So there maybe were more than one angels but chief of them was Gabriel.

I will post this:

And leave it that since I cannot receive an informative answer into my inquiry.,

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

jesus posed three questions to unbelievers that answers this question;

İslam do not inform about baptism (because of not to endorse baptism ) but gives some information about john. And before geting in heaven faithful will go in pool of kevser and been cleare from their sins and dirt.

John the baptist baptised, Jesus was baptised by John. Jesus teaches about baptism. Islam does not follow the teachings of their prophet jesus to baptise? But only talks about John the baptist?

Islam cannot answer their prophet Jesus question about baptism?

quran:
And zakariya and john, and jesus and elias: All in the ranks of the righteous: 6:85

(his prayer was answered): “o zakariya! We give thee good news of a son: His name shall be yahyá: (john)on none by that name have we conferred distinction before.” 19: 7

. 12 (to his son came the command): “o john! Take hold of the book with might”: And we gave him wisdom even as a youth,

1. And pity (for all creatures) as from us, and purity: He was devout,

1. And kind to his parents, and he was not overbearing or rebellious. 9: 12-14

so we listened to him: And we granted him john: We cured his wife’s (barrenness) for him. These (three) were ever quick in doing in good works; they used to call on us with yearning and awe, and humble themselves before us. 21: 90

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

mhmtas;10762518]

Jesus posed three questions to unbelievers that answers this question;

If Islam has the wisdom of Allah from Muhammad, and Muhammad is believed to be the last and greatest prophet of Allah. Then Islam should possess the wisdom to be able to answer Jesus question as a prophet of Allah.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

cont;

They disbelieved indeed those that say that Allah is Christ the son of Mary. Say: "Who then hath the least power against Allah, if His will were to destroy Christ the son of Mary, his mother, and every one that is on the earth? For to Allah belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is between. He createth what He pleaseth. For Allah hath power over all things 5:17

Certainly they disbelieve who say: “Allah is Christ the son of Mary.” But said Christ: “O Children of Israel! worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord.” Whoever joins other gods with Allah,- Allah will forbid him the Garden, and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrong-doers be no one to help. 5:72

Islam rejects the view that God, Jesus and Mary is the trinity of Christians? We Christians rejected this false teaching also, and Christians never believed that the Trinity consists of God, Jesus and Mary. Your Quran rejects the same trinity we Christians reject and never accept the Quran’s view of the trinity.

Christ the son of Mary was no more than a messenger; many were the messengers that passed away before him. His mother was a woman of truth. They had both to eat their (daily) food. See how Allah doth make His signs clear to them; yet see in what ways they are deluded away from the truth! 5:75

1. They take their priests and their anchorites to be their lords beside Allah, and (they take as their Lord) Christ the son of Mary; yet they were commanded to worship but One God. there is no god but He. Praise and glory to Him: (Far is He) from having the partners they associate (with Him). 9:30,31

Your Quran teaches a Christian Arian heretical view of Jesus that Christians officially rejected 400 years before Islam came. Islam is teaching a christian heresy here, it is never believed by the Catholic Church. The Quran divides God essence and claims Christians believe this, this is false. Christians never divide God’s essence as having partners or multiple god’s. Your Quran never disqualifies the Catholic faith, because the Quran never reveals the Catholic Christian faith in order to reject it.

Your Quran teaches and rejects a christianity that is never Christian in the truest sense by which Christians have always believed since the first Century, 700 years before Muhammad and Islam were ever heard of. The Quran never reveals the true Jesus by which the Christian faith believes.

If Jesus put a question? and Christians can answer it. Yet Islam or the Quran cannot answer Jesus’s questions? Would you agree that Islam believes in a Jesus that is never a first century Jesus, but a different Jesus revealed by Heretics and Muhammad who agree with these heretics (Arians) over 400 years later?

Peace be with you

 

[mhmtas]

cont;

If Jesus put a question? and Christians can answer it. Yet Islam or the Quran cannot answer Jesus’s questions? Would you agree that Islam believes in a Jesus that is never a first century Jesus, but a different Jesus revealed by Heretics and Muhammad who agree with these heretics (Arians) over 400 years later?

I do not know exactly about baptism. But Muslims have a better way and that is ablution and full ablution. Muslims take ablution to be clear as nominal to serve Allah and worship.
Perhaps Baptism was a kind of ablution because all prophets got cleaned as matterial and morality.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

mhmtas;10766403]
I do not know exactly about baptism. But Muslims have a better way and that is ablution and full ablution. Muslims take ablution to be clear as nominal to serve Allah and worship.
Perhaps Baptism was a kind of ablution because all prophets got cleaned as matterial and morality.

Is ablution revealed in the Quran by Gabriel or is it taught from the Hadith’s? The prophet Ezekiel makes a prophecy to the Christian baptism, that removes all stain of sin, actual sin, and punishment of sin. see chapter 34-36.

The Christian baptism recieves grace, mercy, forgiveness and the anointing of the Holy Spirit, so that the baptized can grow in the mysteries and revelations of God, but most importantly baptism enters one into the promised Kingdom of heaven as a child of God.

What does “ablution” do for you? and how is ablution administered or conducted in Islam?

 

[JohnVIII]

Firstly forswearing for sins is enough to be forgiven by God. And God writes 1 goodness as 10 at least but writes 1 evil as 1. And also God is so vast merciful forgive sins without a reason.

İf Jesus has a divine nature and he is Son of God he should not get suffer in anyway! İndeed there is no need for suc thing. İf Jesus suffer than he is not a God and if he does not than is there any mean to say that God sacrified his “Divine God Son” to forgive sinfuls?

I (for one) think your point is valid. Even if Jesus is both divine and human, you would think the divine would make it certain that there would be no suffering. It took several centuries before Catholic dogma could work out all the details that had to be built on the premise that divine and human became one. Before Athanasius you would be hard pressed to find anyone holding such a premise. According to The Clementine Homilies not even St Peter held such a premise.

I believe the original pre-Catholic Gnostic Christian view was that Jesus did not suffer but Christ did suffer, as Jesus and Christ were not one, but two persons. Then right at the point of the crucifixion the two switched their respective natures; Jesus essentially incarnated for the first time on the cross, but with a dead body, and the person who was the Christ was resurrected at that point with a spiritual body. This same Christ was then sent to preach the gospel of the resurrection (appearing as a body of flesh just as Jesus had, though in reality having a body of spirit). Jesus was the first comforter, then this same Christ was the second comforter that was sent by Jesus. Now, the word “apostle” means one who is “sent”. This Christ (sent by Jesus right after the crucifixion) was the Apostle Paul. Through out this there was no point where suffering could be experienced by a divine being. Nor did divine nature and human nature co-exist in one person at the same time.