Can a good Muslim be a good American?

[Little_Mary]

Someone sent me this and asked me what I thought. I was told it was written by someone (I don’t know who) who live in Saudi Arabie for 20 years and was asked if he thought a Muslim could make a good American. This was his response.

I think it’s rather harsh, I thought Islam was a religion of peace and while they might believe things quite differently than Christians do, it’s all about live and let live. Isn’t it just a handful of extremists giving Islam a bad name?

Anyway, here it is…your commens are appreciated.

" Can a good Muslim be a good American?
Interesting questions for the Muslim Community to discuss & for
Research on our part also.

Can a good Muslim be a good American? I forwarded that question
To a Friend who worked in Saudi Arabia for 20 years . The following
Is His Reply:

Theologically - no. Because his allegiance is to Allah, the
Moon God of Arabia. Religiously - no. Because no other religion is
Accepted by his Allah except Islam (Quran, 2:256)

Scripturally - no. Because his allegiance is to the five
Pillars Of Islam and the Quran (Koran). Geographically - no. Because his
Allegiance is to Mecca, to which he turns in prayer five times a
Day.

Socially - no. Because his allegiance to Islam forbids him to
Make Friends with Christians or Jews. Politically - no. Because he
Must Submit to the mullah (spiritual leaders), who teach annihilation
Of Israel and Destruction of America, the great Satan.

Domestically - no. Because he is instructed to marry four women
And Beat and scourge his wife when she disobeys him (Quran 4:34 ).

Intellectually - no. Because he cannot accept the American
Constitution since it is based on Biblical principles and he
Believes The Bible to be corrupt.

Philosophically - no. Because Islam, Muhammad, and the Quran do
Not Allow freedom of religion and expression. Democracy and Islam
Cannot co-exist. Every Muslim government is either dictatorial or
autocratic.

Spiritually - no. Because when we declare ‘one nation under God,’ The
Christians God is loving and kind, while Allah is NEVER referred
To as Heavenly father, nor is he ever called love in The Qurans 99
Excellent Names.

Therefore after much study and deliberation… Perhaps we
Should Be Very suspicious of ALL MUSLIMS in this country. They obviously
Cannot be both ‘good’ Muslims and good Americans.

Call it what you wish, its still the truth. You had better
Believe it!
If you find yourself intellectually in agreement with the above
Statements, perhaps you will share this with your friends. The
More who Understand this, the better it will be for our country and our
Future. Pass it On Fellow Americans. The religious war is bigger than we
know
Or Understand.

And Barack Hussein Obama, a Muslim, wants to be our President…"

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Muslims like me are just like a lot of other groups that don’t like what the government does. We don’t approve of supporting a nation like Israel which is based on a theology that says Jesus is a false prophet. We don’t like all the idols everywhere, like the Roman goddesses liberty and justice. And so on.

But we can be like Paul, a Roman citizen trying to stick to his Jewish values and fit in peacefully with that system at the same time.

When the USA starts to enforce Laws of Noah for Gentiles, which doing it the Talmud way would forbid Jesus – some can’t figure out why Bush was recently serenaded with “Over the Rainbow” in Israel, the rainbow being the sign of Noah’s covenant – sensible Muslims will just refuse to deny Jesus and be martyred.

Along with the Christians.

 

[Mirdath]

Many of those are just as applicable to Catholics as they are to Muslims. Some are true only of Islam’s equivalent of Christians’ crazy snake-handling, moral-law-ends-at-Leviticus fundamentalists. The rest – if not the whole thing – is a steaming pile. Just for one, the Constitution is not based on Biblical principles: they may have some in common, but that in no way implies heredity. It’s a secular document for a secular nation.

You may want to edit out the paranoid untruth about a particular presidential candidate at the bottom if you’ve got time. Said candidate is, in fact, Christian. That line makes the intent of the mailing quite obvious: it’s a two-for-one smearjob.

Basically, what you got is pure grade-A horse puckey with baking soda. Don’t smoke it.

 

[Little_Mary]

thanks Mirdath. I meant to edit that out originally. I don’t see the edit key as an option anymore though.

Mods?

 

[cascherman]

Many of those are just as applicable to Catholics as they are to Muslims. Some are true only of Islam’s equivalent of Christians’ crazy snake-handling, moral-law-ends-at-Leviticus fundamentalists. The rest – if not the whole thing – is a steaming pile. Just for one, the Constitution is not based on Biblical principles: they may have some in common, but that in no way implies heredity. It’s a secular document for a secular nation.

You may want to edit out the paranoid untruth about a particular presidential candidate at the bottom if you’ve got time. Said candidate is, in fact, Christian. That line makes the intent of the mailing quite obvious: it’s a two-for-one smearjob.

Basically, what you got is pure grade-A horse puckey with baking soda. Don’t smoke it.

which are applicable to Catholics? I didn’t think that article was about Catholics, but thanks for bringing us into it! (whether or not any of it is true)

 

[Mirdath]

which are applicable to Catholics? I didn’t think that article was about Catholics, but thanks for bringing us into it! (whether or not any of it is true)

Well, let’s make it more general: can any devotee of an organized religion be a good citizen of a country not directly and completely controlled by that religion? Of course the answer’s yes, since most people are stable and sane enough to give unto Caesar what is Caesar’s and save God’s for God.

I’ll take it point by point since you asked

1. Theological: general to all religions. Your allegiance is first to your God, is it not?
2. Religious: snake-handler territory. Most Muslims are decent enough to allow for the existence of other ways of thought, just as most Christians are.
3. Scripturally: general to all religions. Sorry, but the Bill of Rights isn’t in the Bible.
4. Geographically: as far as Catholicism goes, aren’t you technically subjects of the Pope, who is ruler of Vatican City? Direct equivalence.
5. Socially: again, snake-handler territory. Some Christians isolate themselves from any ‘harmful influences’ – I expect I’m on quite a few ignore lists here because of that tendency! But most people are pretty reasonable.
6. Politically: we can’t stop here, this is bat country! Once more, putting the ‘mental’ in ‘fundamentalist’.
7. Domestically: ibid.
8. Intellectually: I got into this a bit in my previous post. Our author has taken considerable liberty with the historic record here. Since he’s plainly wrong, there’s nothing prohibiting any religious person applying the ‘give unto Caesar…’ teaching (or any relatives of it) judiciously.
9. Philosophically: more or less the same problem as above, with the added problem of it being shared territory. Have there been any Catholic democracies, or even republics? Not that I’m aware of. Representative government must be secular to work well for large, diverse populations.
10. Spiritually: Nostra Aetate is quite clear: The Church regards with esteem also the Muslims. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all-powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth, who has spoken to men. You basically can’t accept this point.

In its closing paragraphs, the letter warns to ‘be very suspicious’ because people who are so obviously different cannot be good citizens – the same libel Jews were subject to in Europe for centuries; and we all know how that ended up.

This stuff is toxic. The worst part is, I can’t even say stupidity is at fault. This looks to be actively malicious, preying on ignorance and fear to take a particular person whose name shall not be mentioned down, and with the added bonus of driving a wedge between Christians and Muslims. Don’t let it do that.

 

[cascherman]

Whether or not I agree with what is said in the letter, which I more lean toward the disagree side of things, I find it interesting that you bring up ‘Give what is Caesar’s to Caesar and what is God’s to God’. That is generally where I was going with my comments. A Christian can take that advise and live peacefully in a nation and still be a part of that nation. Last I checked that advise does not hold in Muslim philosophy.

 

[Little_Mary]

Whether or not I agree with what is said in the letter, which I more lean toward the disagree side of things, I find it interesting that you bring up ‘Give what is Caesar’s to Caesar and what is God’s to God’. That is generally where I was going with my comments. A Christian can take that advise and live peacefully in a nation and still be a part of that nation. Last I checked that advise does not hold in Muslim philosophy.

Are you saying that a christian can “live and let live” but a Muslim is not permitted to do same?

Hope that doesn’t sound argumentative, I don’t mean it to, I’m just trying to clarify.

 

[paarsurrey]

Well, let’s make it more general: can any devotee of an organized religion be a good citizen of a country not directly and completely controlled by that religion? Of course the answer’s yes, since most people are stable and sane enough to give unto Caesar what is Caesar’s and save God’s for God.

Hi

I agree with you, there is no problem for a Muslim to be a devoted Muslim and to be very good citizen of America, at least I don’t find any such problem with Ahmadi peaceful Muslim already living in thousands very peacefully in America, Canada , UK, Germany, France and other European countries. However, due to the looming dangers from some extremists, there is no harm to keep vigilence.

Thanks

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Whether or not I agree with what is said in the letter, which I more lean toward the disagree side of things, I find it interesting that you bring up ‘Give what is Caesar’s to Caesar and what is God’s to God’. That is generally where I was going with my comments. A Christian can take that advise and live peacefully in a nation and still be a part of that nation. Last I checked that advise does not hold in Muslim philosophy.

Don’t you think this is all a bit hypocritical considering that the USA wouldn’t even exist without violent Christian rebellion against their king in England?

 

[cascherman]

Are you saying that a christian can “live and let live” but a Muslim is not permitted to do same?

Hope that doesn’t sound argumentative, I don’t mean it to, I’m just trying to clarify.

Personally, I cannot speak for Islam, but I know for a fact that the Bible has instruction for Christians on this matter. I can’t apply that instruction to Muslims. So, I was mainly arguing for a Christian’s ability, by instruction for Jesus himself, to live peacefully in a nation and ‘give what is Caesar’s to Caesar and what is God’s to God’. That’s all.

 

[cascherman]

Don’t you think this is all a bit hypocritical considering that the USA wouldn’t even exist without violent Christian rebellion against their king in England?

Do you hold to the New Testament? Because that is the advise I am speaking of that does not hold in the Muslim philosophy.

‘give what is Caesar’s to Caesar and what is God’s to God’. That is all. I am not saying a Muslim is not instructed in that way, I am merely saying a Christian IS instructed in that way.

It really has nothing to do with the American Revolution.

 

[Mirdath]

A Christian can take that advise and live peacefully in a nation and still be a part of that nation. Last I checked that advise does not hold in Muslim philosophy.

It isn’t so good for Christians either, if you happen to subscribe to a particular brand of fundamentalism.

Sure, the philosophies of various religions are designed for different circumstances: Judaism for the wanderers, Christianity for the underdogs, Islam for the conquerors – that’s just a function of how they developed. Parts of each are considered ‘out of date’ or unnecessary in modern society, and with good reason. The twelve tribes of Israel have yet to circle San Francisco with trumpets. Christians, minus the slightly loopy ones, don’t assume the Christ will return in their lifetimes. And Muslims are perfectly capable of getting along with everyone else.

paarsurrey:

However, due to the looming dangers from some extremists, there is no harm to keep vigilence.

There’s vigilance against handfuls of fanatics, and then there’s baseless suspicion of almost a billion people (including you!). The former is reasonable; the latter is what the letter in the OP says we should do.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Do you hold to the New Testament? Because that is the advise I am speaking of that does not hold in the Muslim philosophy.

‘give what is Caesar’s to Caesar and what is God’s to God’. That is all. I am not saying a Muslim is not instructed in that way, I am merely saying a Christian IS instructed in that way.

It really has nothing to do with the American Revolution.

I hold to it, and the Quran says the NT is sent from God. But a lot of Muslims don’t accept it. And I guess neither do more than a few Christians since the USA was founded on rebellion and violence against their “Caesar” in England. Which is probably pertinent since the thread is about being a good American following Christian principles of sheathing your sword as Jesus taught and all that.

 

[cascherman]

I hold to it, and the Quran says the NT is sent from God. But a lot of Muslims don’t accept it. And I guess neither do more than a few Christians since the USA was founded on rebellion and violence against their “Caesar” in England. Which is probably pertinent since the thread is about being a good American following Christian principles of sheathing your sword as Jesus taught and all that.

Well, there ya go, if you hold to the NT, then you have been instructed to ‘give what is Caesar’s to Caesar and to God what is God’s’.

lol, but you really seem to be pushing the American Revolution thing, which I won’t comment on because it does not seem pertinent to the conversation. Maybe you could make another thread about it.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Well, there ya go, if you hold to the NT, then you have been instructed to ‘give what is Caesar’s to Caesar and to God what is God’s’.

lol, but you really seem to be pushing the American Revolution thing, which I won’t comment on because it does not seem pertinent to the conversation. Maybe you could make another thread about it.

Ok well you said, “A Christian can take that advise and live peacefully in a nation and still be a part of that nation. Last I checked that advise does not hold in Muslim philosophy.”

The American Revolution is an example of where Christians didn’t live peacefully within the English territories and created another nation, so in that big way they didn’t give to Caesar.

So in this land here of America, there is more evidence of Christian rebellion against a Caesar than there is Muslim rebellion, since the USA is the result of that rebellion. I mean, you compared the religions on that standard, so I thought it would be good to point this out.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Someone sent me this and asked me what I thought. I was told it was written by someone (I don’t know who) who live in Saudi Arabie for 20 years and was asked if he thought a Muslim could make a good American. This was his response.

I think it’s rather harsh, I thought Islam was a religion of peace and while they might believe things quite differently than Christians do, it’s all about live and let live. Isn’t it just a handful of extremists giving Islam a bad name?

Anyway, here it is…your commens are appreciated.

…

Some comments:​

1. Obama is not a Muslim - he’s a Christian. And no, I have no objections at all to depriving Christians of the vote; I think they are a menace.
2. Those of us who have heard of Judge Hugo Black may know that Loraine Boettner’s book “Roman Catholicism”, on which Judge Black relied as evidence in making a judgement, says that Catholics can’t be “good Americans” either. It was saying that in 1962 when first published - & it said that in 1989, when it was in its fifth edition.

But Reconstructionism, which wants to make the Law of Moses into the law of the US, is not only Protestant; it is Calvinist - very much so: just like Boettner. The danger to the US is not from the CC at all, but from Calvinist fanatics. And there are far more Calvinists in the US than Muslims. It is Protestants, such as Calvinists, & not Muslims or Catholics, who are danger to the security of the US.

As for beating members of one’s family - Proverbs 13 & 23 have plenty of advice on the matter; so it is ignorant to pick on the Koran. Or is beating one’s son to save him from death commendable, and beating one’s wife a bad thing ? Anyone who beats a child is a coward; but that is the sort of paediatric advice that some people value; while savaging Muslims for hitting grown-ups.

Why suspect “ALL MUSLIMS” ? How this better in principle than suspecting all negroes, & lynching them ? Or than suspecting all Catholics, or than suspecting churches, convents, monasteries ? Some people can’t live without having nightmares.

Can a sincere Christian be a citizen at all ? Maybe Protestants who parade their loyalty to a mere earthly state are implicitly denying the claims of Christ the King. Who is Lord: the President - or Jesus Christ ? One day, the USA will go the way of every other super-power, & it would be madness to make a fuss of so unimportant a trifle as the US or any other state. Human beings will outlast them all; authority & power on earth will not.

 

[LeahInancsi]

I’d like to get back to the title of this thread.

Can a good American also be a good Muslin? Why not?

 

[Fred_4]

I would think so. There’s all kinds of things to quote but the bottom line is that most people are primarily concerned with making a living a taking care of their families. Remember, it wasn’t so long ago that many people thought that there was no way that Catholics could be good Americans as they were all beholden to the pope… a foreign king.

 

[Little_Mary]

Ok well you said, “A Christian can take that advise and live peacefully in a nation and still be a part of that nation. Last I checked that advise does not hold in Muslim philosophy.”

The American Revolution is an example of where Christians didn’t live peacefully within the English territories and created another nation, so in that big way they didn’t give to Caesar.

So in this land here of America, there is more evidence of Christian rebellion against a Caesar than there is Muslim rebellion, since the USA is the result of that rebellion. I mean, you compared the religions on that standard, so I thought it would be good to point this out.

I think there is a difference between moving away to start your own government because you don’t like where your are and violently flying airplanes into office buildings unprovoked.

You can’t compare the two.