Can a Homosexual become a Heterosexual?

[EasterJoy]

It is not my personal satisfaction that must be met, but that of the argument. Either there is a quality that is not sexual in nature or shared by the other orientations, or there is not. Anything extraneous to the demonstration of such a quality doesn’t satisfy the argument.

There are at least some gays whom most people would say seemed clearly different from their peers of the same gender from a* very* young age. These differences may not be absolute, but they approach the magnitude of secondary characteristics between men and women: walking differently, talking differently, acting differently at play, different emotional affects, interests typical of the opposite gender, and so on. These differences are obvious, appear before children could know to pretend them, and they are recognizable.

If you are saying, then, that there is no difference between gays and straights other than sexual preference, then you are also saying that there is really no difference between men and women other than reproductive parts, because you can find men and women who don’t fit the stereotype of expected differences. While there are men and women who are far enough from the median of their own gender to overlap with the opposite sex in these regards, that doesn’t erase the real average differences between the two groups.

Now, maybe you’re one of those people who say that girls and boys differ only by certain physical parts and the social conditioning that comes with being a child equipped with one set of parts or the other. I don’t buy that, and the brain scans provide evidence there, too. Ironically, the evidence now seems to be that being gay is one of the reasons that girls and boys sometimes don’t fit the typical differences between male and female heterosexual that the trend of the majority would lead us to expect.

IOW, as groups, boys and girls are different, whether or not people want to believe it. Likewise, as groups, there are often observable differences between gays and their straight peers of the same gender. Is this always true in every case? No. Does that mean the trend is imaginary? Hardly. If you don’t believe that, you’re in the minority.

 

[Dakota_Roberts]

It is not my personal satisfaction that must be met, but that of the argument. Either there is a quality that is not sexual in nature or shared by the other orientations, or there is not. Anything extraneous to the demonstration of such a quality doesn’t satisfy the argument.

What is “sexual”? Is it restricted to just sex or is there more to it? Where is the line between the sensual and the sexual?

 

[warpspeedpetey]

There are at least …

I am not interested in information extraneous to the demonstration of the claimed quality. Thank you.

 

[chrysostim83]

I am not interested in information extraneous to the demonstration of the claimed quality. Thank you.

So you want an a priori proof of an empirical claim? Small wonder you’re never satisfied.

 

[warpspeedpetey]

What is “sexual”? Is it restricted to just sex or is there more to it? Where is the line between the sensual and the sexual?

sex·u·al
Adjective/ˈsekSHo͞oəl/

1. Relating to the instincts, physiology, and activities connected with physical attraction or intimate contact between individuals.

sen·su·al
/ˈsenSHo͞oəl/
Adjective: Of or arousing gratification of the senses and physical, esp. sexual, pleasure…

There is no line.

 

[warpspeedpetey]

So you want an a priori proof of an empirical claim?..

No.

 

[Dakota_Roberts]

There is no line.

So then were St. Theresa of Avila’s ecstasies sexual?

 

[warpspeedpetey]

So then were St. Theresa of Avila’s ecstasies sexual?

You have claimed that there is something more to being gay than sex. Can you demonstrate this quality or are you ready to admit that no such quality exists?

 

[Hadrianus]

I am only interested in the claim made. “there is more to being gay than sex”. The demonstration of this quality that is “something more” to being gay than sex, or the admission that no such quality actually exists are the only statements germane to the issue. The science surrounding the issue is methodologically and ethically flawed and has been for years.

As you have decided in advance that the various medical and scientific studies done are as you put it “methodologically and ethically flawed” then it would seem that you are unwilling to admit any evidence you consider might challenge your assumptions. Nonetheless, there is a growing body of material which suggests that the brains of male homosexuals function more like those of heterosexual women, with the reverse being true for lesbians. Hence, it would seem that homosexual persons possess qualities characteristic of both their own and the opposite sex, and hence do have different qualities from their heterosexual counterparts. This in itself raises a larger question of what constitutes male and female qualities, and the various degrees thereof. At the same time, human nature itself only admits of degree in it’s differences, so all humans are going to possess certain qualities and characteristics in vary degrees. No individual can possess a quality totally distinct in kind from another human being, but the degree can be so great as to allow us to speak of people who possess different qualities.

 

[Dakota_Roberts]

You have claimed that there is something more to being gay than sex. Can you demonstrate this quality or are you ready to admit that no such quality exists?

It’s a valid question that should only need a yes or no answer.

 

[warpspeedpetey]

…No individual can possess a quality totally distinct in kind from another human being,…

We are not discussing causes of homosexuality or differences in physiology. We are talking about the claim that there is some quality that is neither sexual in nature or shared by all the other orientations. As you point out here no such quality is really possible. Now if only the people making and supporting the claim would admit the obvious as you have here this matter could be settled.

 

[Hadrianus]

“…but the degree can be so great as to allow us to speak of people who possess different qualities.”

Just wanted to finish the citation so people see it in context.

 

[warpspeedpetey]

It’s a valid question that should only need a yes or no answer.

You have claimed that there is something more to being gay than sex. Can you demonstrate this quality or are you ready to admit that no such quality exists?

 

[warpspeedpetey]

“…but the degree can be so great as to allow us to speak of people who possess different qualities.”

Just wanted to finish the citation so people see it in context.

Good idea. People might not know that the blue button by the quote tags refers back to the original post.

 

[Dakota_Roberts]

You have claimed that there is something more to being gay than sex. Can you demonstrate this quality or are you ready to admit that no such quality exists?

All I want is a simple yes or no answer, it is a simple question with a very simple answer needed.

 

[warpspeedpetey]

All I want is a simple yes or no answer, it is a simple question with a very simple answer needed.

You have claimed that there is something more to being gay than sex. Can you demonstrate this quality or are you ready to admit that no such quality exists?

 

[Credo_in_Deum]

With God nothing is impossible. CelIbacy or marriage to a member of the opposite sex is a real and attainable vocation whatever ones sexual attraction. Just find out God’s will and co-operate with His grace. His yoke is easy.
StevenFrancis;8272392:

Beautiful post

I would like to second that! Great post John!

God Bless

 

[Dakota_Roberts]

You have claimed that there is something more to being gay than sex. Can you demonstrate this quality or are you ready to admit that no such quality exists?

It’s already been pointed out to you with science that the differences run to parts of the brain that aren’t involved in sexual attraction, it’s been pointed out that theologically/morally they are different. Theology and science are the tools used to find truth, without either man is blind.

 

[warpspeedpetey]

It’s already been pointed out to you with science …

What do you think that has to do with your claim? I see no demonstration of a quality that is neither sexual in nature nor shared by all the other orientations.

.

 

[speakttruth]

Where all the stories and testimonies from the wives who married these “ex-gay” men? She has to say yes before they can get married, and most Catholic dioceses have a requisite waiting period. Why are all the “ex-gay” testimonies from the men themselves but never from the women who are the wives and mothers in these families? Where are their stories? The only stories I hear from the wives of “ex-gay” husbands is how crushed and devastated they are that he couldn’t “change” - and how the marriage ended in divorce because he was “still gay.” Give me more stories from the women who are happily married to “ex-gay” men, and I’ll be a little more inclined to possibly believe this whole “ex-gay” thing.

Hi,
My question did the women know that they were Same sex attracted before they were married? Gay is a term from the enemy. That is not who they are. I also think maybe a lot of women don’t want people to know that their husband had this issue even if they are happy. If a women knew ahead of time about their husband, or suspected and married them anyway, then they were fooling themselves to think they could change them. How many women do that anyway, because they are desperate, with so many different kinds of problems with some men and find out that they can’t change them? So I question the validity of those testimonies.

Some men think they can just get married and maybe that will help them overcome their SSA problem. Wrong. They have to find out why they have the attraction and work on themselves first before they can even consider being with a women. It wouldn’t be fair to the women. I
I went to a Courage conference and one of the most common problems with men that are in the lifestyle is Narcissism. So if a man who was selfish enough to want children and married a women for that reason and then came out later, because he never intended to be faithful and lied to her, she wouldn’t have a very good testimony. I think their are more stories of men who become chaste and had a conversion. Another thing I learned at the conference is many of the men I met, all different ages and all at different times in their life, finally realized that, that life was a dead end and then turn their life to God, Some did get married and claimed they were happy. One man did say he put his wife through hell, but overcame and had three children with her and was a deacon. So who knows.

One of the problems is that since men are very visual sexually, many were addicted to porn and very active as well, and if they were in the life a long time, they have too many memories of things that they have done and it is difficult to get rid of the SSA completely, so they would rather remain chaste and devote themselves to God. David Morison warned about that if you got out early it was better for recovery. His book was Beyond Gay and his testimony was really something.

I have so much respect for these guys, because that is a heavy cross and they are truly victim souls. We should still be encourage for some men who really want to have their normal attraction back, but need to work on that first may be successful completely or at varing degrees that make it possible to have a normal relationship. But others who don’t want that, find happiness with a community of holy people that support one another during difficult times in chastity.

The point being it is not an ex anything. It’s either someone who gained their normal attraction back completely or to a degree that they could function as a good husband that they were created for or someone who doesn’t want to maybe put someone through that or they just want to devote themselves to God. Either way they are paving themselves on the road to heaven. Isn’t that the real goal?
God bless