W
wjhii
Guest
Is there any reference in the old or new testiment to a person being born without a soul?
- Status
E
exodus
Guest
No, every living person has an eternal soul. The question is where will this soul spend eternity? I know for sure where I’m going(heaven-purgatory doesn’t exist), do you?
H
Huiou_Theou
Guest
Correct, but some children are born dead.
Stillborn.
A child who dies in childbirth qualifies, and this was common though generally not recorded.
The word for spirit (and by extension soul) is pneuma – the loss of breath is pneumonia.
So you can see that physical death would be what is understood in the O.T.
hope that helps.
Stillborn.
A child who dies in childbirth qualifies, and this was common though generally not recorded.
The word for spirit (and by extension soul) is pneuma – the loss of breath is pneumonia.
So you can see that physical death would be what is understood in the O.T.
hope that helps.
W
wjhii
Guest
You mean your going to hell? That’s sad.
W
wjhii
Guest
Huiou Theou:
un-baptized state.
Interesting point. But I have always understood that stillborn babies had souls, but went to Purgatory because they died in an
un-baptized state.
T
TheTruth0723
Guest
I think he meant that Purgatory doesn’t exist, and he is going straight to Heaven.
E
exodus
Guest
Heaven-bound in Jesus Christ alone. Think of all that unmerited favor it takes to make what is dead(spiritually) alive, a new creation, “born-again”, regenerated, justified, glorified, sealed with the Holy Spirit, seated in the heavenlies, made kings and priests unto God by Christ. The name that every knee will bow, every tongue confess Jesus Christ is Lord.
To be absent from the body, is to be present with the Lord(ps. He’s in heaven).
J
Joseph_Bilodeau
Guest
Stillborn infants do have souls, but as they die before birth, their souls are separated from their bodies. So then, when their bodies finally are born, they are born without a soul, which was what the questioner asked.
As to whether their souls go to Purgatory, I doubt it, but even if so that would be a moot point because Purgatory is a temporary state. Everyone who goes to purgatory eventually gets to Heaven.
L
LMB
Guest
I believe every human born has a soul.
W
wjhii
Guest
Reread your orginal post. Your states heaven doesn’t exsist. By your insult I assumed you some type of Godless sinner.
Now back to the subject. The question I’m asking is if there is a Biblical Reference to a human being without a soul or one the losses their soul before death?
W
wjhii
Guest
Joseph Bilodeau:
I missed that point, my fault but it was an excellent point. I agree with you on Purgatory but I believe our views may be contrary to that of the Church. I know at one point the church believed that Purgatory was a permanent resting place for good people of the Islamic faith, the un-baptized, good people without faith, and even at one point Jews. But this is all from Dante. What is the current teaching?
T
thann
Guest
Are you referring to the “golem” of the Kabbalistic texts? (Kabbalah is a sort of “hidden” mystical Jewish religion that has recently gained popularity with shallow celebrities – Madonna is a practicioner. Think of “Jewish New Age.”)
Definition: Artificially created (soulless) human being endowed with life by supernatural means.
According to Kabbalistic texts, Adam was supposedly a golem before God breathed life into him (thus giving him a soul). According to Kabbalah, one can create their own universe by creating golem using a system of magic based on something called Jacob’s Wheel.
Some see the reference in Psalm 139:16 as being a reference to golem (unformed substance), but that’s a stretch.
'thann
W
wjhii
Guest
No, I’m just trying to learn something new.I don’t have the answer, but it sounds like I need toread Psalm 139:16.
Thank you and God Bless
C
Church_Militant
Guest
Lame…
D
donosti
Guest
No,everyone has a soul without exeption.
P
Perry5
Guest
What is a soul,is it some form of life producing energy that man has yet to discover and or understand???
B
Billicus
Guest
I think you’re confusing Limbo with Purgatory. Purgatory is a state in which those who die in grace but who still have temporal penalities for venial faults undergo purgation. Doctrine holds that Christ freed us from our sins, but unless we have perfect contrition, there still remain temporal consequences for our sins. Basically, if we don’t do pennance in this life, we do it in Purgatory.
Here’s the initial definition from New Advent:
The existence of Limbo is a bit more elusive. Here’s the definition from New Advent again:
So there would actually be two Limbos: one where the righteous waited in bliss until the coming of Christ, and one where unbaptized infants “enjoy a state of perfect natural happiness,” albeit separate from God.
I’m frankly not sure what to make of Limbo in light of the teachings in the Catechism regarding righteous but un-baptized individuals in a state of invincible ignorance. It seems to me that the two beliefs would be mutually exclusive, but I haven’t studied the matter enough to say for sure.
R
RoBo_Hobo
Guest
My guess is if a child died in birth (still born) as is said above his soul would be gone before being “born”
I do not think he would go to purgatory but rather be at the mercy of Jesus
After all: “Let the Children come to me”
I do not think he would go to purgatory but rather be at the mercy of Jesus
After all: “Let the Children come to me”
C
Catholic029
Guest
I know this is a very old thread, but I found it fascinating, that people held such varied and wide understandings of the various issues related to the question.
The majority though, I don’t think understood the “contemporary” nature of the question.
I took the question as a response to the current phenomenon of babies being born through IVF - artificial creation. In this regard, the Catholic church is against this science, as it is by the hand of man, not by God. Ironically, present day media are crying out the success and future of such programs as the ideal way for designer babies! Presumably a science that helps man to delete genetic abnormalities out of new births. BUT, 40% of IVF babies are born with genetic defects! Unbeknown to science why! I say nothing can be done by man without GOD… I say it’s obvious on why man will for ever have difficulties with such things - as it is against God’s will and law! Enough of this, I’ll move onto the original question.
Can a human be born without a soul?
Yes they can! IVF babies - -any artificial insemination essentially! Anything not natural!
In response to the original questioner - Of course there is no mention of this in the Bible! In the context of 0-100AD, they are not going to talk about artificial birth control and science in such a direct way! There is a lot to discuss here, perhaps for another post on the exact reasons why the Catholic Doctrine is against this, but essentially it is common sense - and faith, Love & obedience to God.
As far as Purgatory, this is a Catholic Doctrine. So understand that there are people on this site against this teaching.
The last post was ok re it’s definition of Purgatory. But be clear, that it is a place for people who, if they knew about Jesus, followed Jesus! Meaning, it is a place of Divine Mercy, not one of privilege or right! If you are a Jew or a Muslim for instance, ultimately you have rejected Jesus, and essentially He’s promise of Salvation! So if you don’t believe and follow Him, you will not be given this mercy of purifying your Soul. Heaven or Hell will only be your options - and if you have rejected Jesus - there is only one option!
So, no, Purgatory isn’t for ‘good’ Muslims or Jews… or for still born’s!
Purgatory is a cleansing ground - like the previous post, we do penance there, as Catholic’ who believe in God’s Mercy - for any of the sins that we have committed while on earth, but yet to do penance for. Few Souls enter heaven without passing through Purgatory - as few are pious enough to enter Heaven directly to see God! To view the Beatific Vision! To see God in all of He’s Splendor! In prayer, sacrifice & doing penance on earth, following the will of God without exception, one can enter directly into heaven & receive instantly the reward of everlasting life with God in Heaven! But as I said few do. Two that I know would of were St. Faustina and St. Padre Pio. If you would care to read up on the lives of these 2 great Catholic Saints - understanding their lives, their great communion with God - you will then understand why most of us, who even follow and believe in Jesus, who make use of the 7 sacraments, who ask for Graces from Jesus and who ask from He’s Mother Mary, guidance in following Jesus as best we can, we still fall short! Thus, Purgatory allows us to do the necessary penance before receiving our great eternal reward of ever lasting life in Heaven, with all the Angels and Saints - with God, Father Son and Holy Spirit and He’s Mother, the Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother to all and Queen of Heaven!
I labor on this point because this is essentially the major difference between Catholics and non-Catholic Christians. We believe in the value of the 7 Sacraments and we give praise to the Divine Trinity, Father, Son & Holy Spirit… and we also love and ask for the intercession of Our Blessed Mother Mary, who is the Mother of God and Mediatrix between man and God! Her children as promised to Her and us by Jesus at the foot of the cross - and also in keeping with God’s original plan for Salvation! Mary was always going to become the Lords mother from the moment God the Father set forth the plan for our Salvation after we incurred original sin. Again, I could talk all night about this point alone, but I suggest you pick up some of Scott Hahn’s Books as a reference on Mother Mary to understand the Catholic faith. Scott Hahn was a protestant, but found Jesus again and the importance of He’s Mother to us, by opening He’s heart to Jesus, to finally understand the reason why we must accept and love Mary in order to gain the full Mercy of God the Father.
The other point this brings me to, is the issue with a still born child. A soul is divinely assigned to a baby at Conception! This is why pro life is against terminating pregnancies or birth control! A soul has been created by God! Likewise, a soul is not assigned to a test tube baby… ONLY a baby that is consummated between a man and a woman shall receive a Soul from God our Father!
CONT…
The majority though, I don’t think understood the “contemporary” nature of the question.
I took the question as a response to the current phenomenon of babies being born through IVF - artificial creation. In this regard, the Catholic church is against this science, as it is by the hand of man, not by God. Ironically, present day media are crying out the success and future of such programs as the ideal way for designer babies! Presumably a science that helps man to delete genetic abnormalities out of new births. BUT, 40% of IVF babies are born with genetic defects! Unbeknown to science why! I say nothing can be done by man without GOD… I say it’s obvious on why man will for ever have difficulties with such things - as it is against God’s will and law! Enough of this, I’ll move onto the original question.
Can a human be born without a soul?
Yes they can! IVF babies - -any artificial insemination essentially! Anything not natural!
In response to the original questioner - Of course there is no mention of this in the Bible! In the context of 0-100AD, they are not going to talk about artificial birth control and science in such a direct way! There is a lot to discuss here, perhaps for another post on the exact reasons why the Catholic Doctrine is against this, but essentially it is common sense - and faith, Love & obedience to God.
As far as Purgatory, this is a Catholic Doctrine. So understand that there are people on this site against this teaching.
The last post was ok re it’s definition of Purgatory. But be clear, that it is a place for people who, if they knew about Jesus, followed Jesus! Meaning, it is a place of Divine Mercy, not one of privilege or right! If you are a Jew or a Muslim for instance, ultimately you have rejected Jesus, and essentially He’s promise of Salvation! So if you don’t believe and follow Him, you will not be given this mercy of purifying your Soul. Heaven or Hell will only be your options - and if you have rejected Jesus - there is only one option!
So, no, Purgatory isn’t for ‘good’ Muslims or Jews… or for still born’s!Purgatory is a cleansing ground - like the previous post, we do penance there, as Catholic’ who believe in God’s Mercy - for any of the sins that we have committed while on earth, but yet to do penance for. Few Souls enter heaven without passing through Purgatory - as few are pious enough to enter Heaven directly to see God! To view the Beatific Vision! To see God in all of He’s Splendor! In prayer, sacrifice & doing penance on earth, following the will of God without exception, one can enter directly into heaven & receive instantly the reward of everlasting life with God in Heaven!
But as I said few do. Two that I know would of were St. Faustina and St. Padre Pio. If you would care to read up on the lives of these 2 great Catholic Saints - understanding their lives, their great communion with God - you will then understand why most of us, who even follow and believe in Jesus, who make use of the 7 sacraments, who ask for Graces from Jesus and who ask from He’s Mother Mary, guidance in following Jesus as best we can, we still fall short! Thus, Purgatory allows us to do the necessary penance before receiving our great eternal reward of ever lasting life in Heaven, with all the Angels and Saints - with God, Father Son and Holy Spirit and He’s Mother, the Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother to all and Queen of Heaven! I labor on this point because this is essentially the major difference between Catholics and non-Catholic Christians. We believe in the value of the 7 Sacraments and we give praise to the Divine Trinity, Father, Son & Holy Spirit… and we also love and ask for the intercession of Our Blessed Mother Mary, who is the Mother of God and Mediatrix between man and God! Her children as promised to Her and us by Jesus at the foot of the cross - and also in keeping with God’s original plan for Salvation! Mary was always going to become the Lords mother from the moment God the Father set forth the plan for our Salvation after we incurred original sin. Again, I could talk all night about this point alone, but I suggest you pick up some of Scott Hahn’s Books as a reference on Mother Mary to understand the Catholic faith. Scott Hahn was a protestant, but found Jesus again and the importance of He’s Mother to us, by opening He’s heart to Jesus, to finally understand the reason why we must accept and love Mary in order to gain the full Mercy of God the Father.
The other point this brings me to, is the issue with a still born child. A soul is divinely assigned to a baby at Conception! This is why pro life is against terminating pregnancies or birth control! A soul has been created by God! Likewise, a soul is not assigned to a test tube baby… ONLY a baby that is consummated between a man and a woman shall receive a Soul from God our Father!
CONT…
C
Catholic029
Guest
CONT…
A still born, or a child that has died before being baptized, is a child of God. They will return to Heaven, but, unfortunately, like all the Aborted babies - do not enjoy the Beatific Vision - for all of eternity. This is the great sadness, and part of the reason that is causing our Loving God great pain. By He’s perfect justice, these Children do not have the chance to see our Loving God, as they have been born/created with original sin! They carry the curse of our fore parents of original sin as being part of Humanity. This is why it is so important to baptise a Child at birth - to gain protection and graces from God at the earliest days of your life - not to wait, like protestants do until the child is 7 or 13?.. Either way, they wait, not like Catholics. It is so important to protect your children with baptism! Most very Holy Saints have record that they were baptised within 2-3 days of being born, if not straight away! being baptised as a teen or after the point of knowing sin - knowing right and wrong - you leave your child open to pride - open to choosing wrong and arguing he is right! Open to evil is what I am saying… Do you know, 80% of protestant kids now, leave their Church all together after the age of 22! Meaning they either don’t continue to go to Mass, once they leave their parents home after uni for instance, or they simply stop believing all together! This is very sad! They lack the reverence and deep guidance from the Holy Spirit - because their soul was compromised at the start by a hole manner of things - lease of them being baptised late - and being given the choice to chose their faith! Meaning, they loose their relationship with God in amongst this irreverent secular society!
FYI the difinition of The Beatific vision: (Latin: visio beatifica) is the eternal and direct visual perception of God. The Trinity, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The Divine intermingling of the Father, with the Son and the Holy Spirit… Imagine seeing God the Father, Jesus and The Holy Spirit! The Mystery of this before your very eyes! This is the great sorrow of our Loving God that He can not share this with He’s little children who have not lived till baptism! Through either being aborted or still born. Keep in mind, God is just and has a plan for all of us. Sometimes, it is hard fro us to understand, but some still borns are taken from us for good reason. For penance… or for sorrow - to bring us closer to God… Sorrow is penance - given to a sinful, prideful Humanity! A secular society - or an individual Atheist will never understand this concept! They are full of pride, arrogance and selfishness - because they don’t see the true value of life, not the consequence of not loving God, by the time of our Death.
Yes, All natural born people have souls. And if a person, who has not known and rejected Jesus, but has lived a life of piety in the natural laws of God - God will be just and love them as his child and welcome them into heaven. If though through pride and arrogance, that person through there own man made religion, with the knowledge of rejecting Christ for the sake of their own religion, either created by them of their forefathers - they will be also rejected by Jesus before God the Father in Judgment - for God is just. Every Soul during their life will be given the chance to know God and the truth. They will be given the chance to follow He’s words and rules. For instance, an indigenous person, who has never Killed, Stolen or without pay, or taken anothers spouse or set someone unjustly into slavery or taken advantage of a woman (widow) and child - general laws of God - they will be accepted. Essentially, those who have loved and respected others like they would like to be treated themselves.
Jews and Muslims think they are the chosen. Muslims think all are infidels! Jews thinks all non Jews are Gentiles, and that certain crimes are not crimes if they are done against a Gentile. Christianity is for all people! Jew, Gentile… all are children of God. Jesus their Savior! For those Jews and Muslims who reject that Jesus is not their Savior, reject God’s Mercy. Jews pre Jesus, were awaiting a Messiah! A Savior! If they obeyed the commandants, they will take part in Salvation! God has gieb all since though a chance to believe and follow! This is why it is very sad to see the state of the world! Jews, Muslims and Christians do not all follow the same God! This is why it is such a big issue when you discuss the final destination of a persons Soul! The Soul is eternal! Jesus is our Savior! God is our Creator! There is a Heaven, Purgatory and a Hell! Man will never find peace without He’s God! Nor will he ever create a human with a Soul! Science will never unveil the complete truth - as there are super natural elements in this universe that can only be attributed to God - creation by Design.
A still born, or a child that has died before being baptized, is a child of God. They will return to Heaven, but, unfortunately, like all the Aborted babies - do not enjoy the Beatific Vision - for all of eternity. This is the great sadness, and part of the reason that is causing our Loving God great pain. By He’s perfect justice, these Children do not have the chance to see our Loving God, as they have been born/created with original sin! They carry the curse of our fore parents of original sin as being part of Humanity. This is why it is so important to baptise a Child at birth - to gain protection and graces from God at the earliest days of your life - not to wait, like protestants do until the child is 7 or 13?.. Either way, they wait, not like Catholics. It is so important to protect your children with baptism! Most very Holy Saints have record that they were baptised within 2-3 days of being born, if not straight away! being baptised as a teen or after the point of knowing sin - knowing right and wrong - you leave your child open to pride - open to choosing wrong and arguing he is right! Open to evil is what I am saying… Do you know, 80% of protestant kids now, leave their Church all together after the age of 22! Meaning they either don’t continue to go to Mass, once they leave their parents home after uni for instance, or they simply stop believing all together! This is very sad! They lack the reverence and deep guidance from the Holy Spirit - because their soul was compromised at the start by a hole manner of things - lease of them being baptised late - and being given the choice to chose their faith! Meaning, they loose their relationship with God in amongst this irreverent secular society!
FYI the difinition of The Beatific vision: (Latin: visio beatifica) is the eternal and direct visual perception of God. The Trinity, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The Divine intermingling of the Father, with the Son and the Holy Spirit… Imagine seeing God the Father, Jesus and The Holy Spirit!
The Mystery of this before your very eyes! This is the great sorrow of our Loving God that He can not share this with He’s little children who have not lived till baptism! Through either being aborted or still born. Keep in mind, God is just and has a plan for all of us. Sometimes, it is hard fro us to understand, but some still borns are taken from us for good reason. For penance… or for sorrow - to bring us closer to God… Sorrow is penance - given to a sinful, prideful Humanity! A secular society - or an individual Atheist will never understand this concept! They are full of pride, arrogance and selfishness - because they don’t see the true value of life, not the consequence of not loving God, by the time of our Death.Yes, All natural born people have souls. And if a person, who has not known and rejected Jesus, but has lived a life of piety in the natural laws of God - God will be just and love them as his child and welcome them into heaven. If though through pride and arrogance, that person through there own man made religion, with the knowledge of rejecting Christ for the sake of their own religion, either created by them of their forefathers - they will be also rejected by Jesus before God the Father in Judgment - for God is just. Every Soul during their life will be given the chance to know God and the truth. They will be given the chance to follow He’s words and rules. For instance, an indigenous person, who has never Killed, Stolen or without pay, or taken anothers spouse or set someone unjustly into slavery or taken advantage of a woman (widow) and child - general laws of God - they will be accepted. Essentially, those who have loved and respected others like they would like to be treated themselves.
Jews and Muslims think they are the chosen. Muslims think all are infidels! Jews thinks all non Jews are Gentiles, and that certain crimes are not crimes if they are done against a Gentile. Christianity is for all people! Jew, Gentile… all are children of God. Jesus their Savior! For those Jews and Muslims who reject that Jesus is not their Savior, reject God’s Mercy. Jews pre Jesus, were awaiting a Messiah! A Savior! If they obeyed the commandants, they will take part in Salvation! God has gieb all since though a chance to believe and follow! This is why it is very sad to see the state of the world! Jews, Muslims and Christians do not all follow the same God! This is why it is such a big issue when you discuss the final destination of a persons Soul! The Soul is eternal! Jesus is our Savior! God is our Creator! There is a Heaven, Purgatory and a Hell! Man will never find peace without He’s God! Nor will he ever create a human with a Soul! Science will never unveil the complete truth - as there are super natural elements in this universe that can only be attributed to God - creation by Design.
- Status