Can a Jehovah Witness explain this to me?

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WarriorAngel

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Ok, I realise a JW cannot celebrate a birthday or even the birth of Christ.

So here is something I need explained to me…

If we are to understand in revelation that the Angel is Jesus in a another form or name that asks John not to bow down before him…

Then what does this mean?

Romans 14
9 For to this end Christ died and rose again; that he might be Lord both of the dead and of the living. 10 But thou, why judgest thou thy brother? or thou, why dost thou despise thy brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
11 For it is written: As I live, saith the Lord,** every** knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

Philippians 2
8 He humbled himself, becoming obedient unto death, even to the death of the cross. 9 For which cause** God also hath exalted him, and hath given him a name which is above all names**:
10 That in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those that are in heaven, on earth, and under the earth:
11 And that every tongue should confess that the Lord Jesus Christ is in the glory of God the Father.

So evidently - it makes sense that the Angel is not Jesus - since ALL knees shall bow to Jesus. Since He is exalted even BY God.
[For He is God - but exalted by the Father]

Not only aren’t the two entities [the angel and Jesus] the same - but you must give glory and honor to Jesus.

So - any explanations?
 
The Jehovah Witnesses have their own Bible, so they won’t accept anything from a Catholic Bible. So you’re basically using a fallacy to them.
 
Eucharisted said:
The Jehovah Witnesses have their own Bible, so they won’t accept anything from a Catholic Bible. So you’re basically using a fallacy to them.
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In their Bible it says:
For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of God; for it is written: “‘As I live,’ says Jehovah, ‘to me every knee will bend down, and every tongue will make open acknowledgment to God.’” So, then, each of us will render an account for himself to God.
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More than that, when he found himself in fashion as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient as far as death, yes, death on a torture stake. For this very reason also God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every [other] name, so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground, and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.
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If we are to understand in revelation that the Angel is Jesus in a another form or name that asks John not to bow down before him…
That’s because it’s a misunderstanding to understand so.

It was simply an angel.
 
BUT the NT scriptures were written after His death - so the name didn’t become obsolete…nor did it change.

As is evident in the NT post resurrection.
so that in the name of Jesus
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every knee should bend of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground,

Now logically if the Apostles are referring to Him keeping the name Jesus - it makes no sense that He then comes as a fellow servant when God already exalted Him.

Right?

I realise they distorted the Bible - but again - it is illogical that He is both above all - and every knee shall bend - and that He is also an angel who asks not to be bowed to.

Jesus never had a split personality, as their scriptures seem to imply.
 
Its very simple.
Birthday, Christmas , a triune God,
Etc… they believe these are pagan
in origin.

They also believe these were additions during the great apostasy.
 
Well, it’s still illogical to me.

The NT scriptures [which they have - even if they changed them - and we know the Catholic Church didnt because the ancient text copies still exist] still state the name Jesus AFTER the Resurrection.

SO - that means Jesus maintained the name Jesus forevermore… ad inifinitum.

OR you would have seen the Apostles tell us succintly His name was changed and He became an Angel.
But even with their changes - they surely can see every knee shall bow to Him.
 
Its all a matter of perspective, and which scriptures are focused on.

I guarantee you Jehovah’s witnesses would say that every one must kneel to Christ but Jehovah.

Because they don’t see Jesus as just another angel, but second in power to the father…so they see him as extremely powerfull. Powerfull enugh for every knee to bend before him…exept Jehovah’s.
 
I haven’t an answer for the angel and the kneeling business, but one JW I knew told me one of the reasons that they do not celebrate birthdays was because in the Bible, John the Baptist was beheaded at a birthday party (Matthew 14:1-12).
 
Yea, that’s another thing - just because bad things occurred during a birthday celebration - was never a reason for inferring birthdays are wrong.

I had them tell me because we shouldnt honor ourselves…and some other bad things occurred on birthdays.

But at no time does scriptures say the celebration itself is wrong.

In fact - Mary the Mother of Jesus accepted birthday presents for Jesus - the myrrh, frankincense and gold in fact.
[Which is also related to celebrating Christmas]

Well, Jesus says in Revelation - I am the Alpha and the Omega… I was dead but rose again.

It doesnt get more plain than that.
His words stated He was God - that’s what God is - the Aplha and Omega - no beginning and no end.
 
WarriorAngel said:
Yea, that’s another thing - just because bad things occurred during a birthday celebration - was never a reason for inferring birthdays are wrong.

I had them tell me because we shouldnt honor ourselves…and some other bad things occurred on birthdays.

But at no time does scriptures say the celebration itself is wrong.

In fact - Mary the Mother of Jesus accepted birthday presents for Jesus - the myrrh, frankincense and gold in fact.
[Which is also related to celebrating Christmas]

Well, Jesus says in Revelation - I am the Alpha and the Omega… I was dead but rose again.

It doesnt get more plain than that.
His words stated He was God - that’s what God is - the Aplha and Omega - no beginning and no end.
Click to expand...

The argument could be made thus:​

God is superior to Jesus, who is a creature - but is instead the highest of creatures; think of exaggerated Mariology in Catholicism, & apply that to Jesus, “and then some”. Jesus could be a created being through whom God (the “Jehovah God” of JW doctrine) works; so the works could be Divine, but not be proper to Jesus. As with a boxing-glove on a boxer’s hand, so here: Jesus “packs a punch” not because He is God, but because God “works through” him. The glove is nothing without the boxer - take the gloves away, & Muhammed Ali can do nothing through them; they are just gloves, unable to knock out anything. So with Jesus. Jesus’ very high place does not absolutely require it to be his by right & by nature - & however high he is, God can still be higher.

The word “god” is not used of God alone in the OT - & the OT is quoted in the NT for some of the “proof-texts” for Jesus’ Divinity.
 
As I recall: they don’t acknowledge birthdays because somewhere there is one verse in the Bible that says the day of death is more important than the day of birth. (They know the verse, as they are extremely well trained in recitation.) They don’t celebrate Christmas for a few reasons: the actual date of Christ’s birth is unknown, the Church set the date for “Christ’s Mass” to celebrate the tremendous gift of God being born as man and they do not like the Church, they don’t accept the divinity of Christ so to them it doesn’t matter when the Son was born, and the whole birthday vs. deathday thing.

As to why they think Jesus is Michael the Archangel, that’s because Christ’s glorious return will include a loud trumpet blast by the Archangel. Although why they say Michael instead of Gabriel, I don’t understand. In the Bible, it’s generally Gabriel who announces a great event/arrival.

The rest of it has already been explained somewhat, but to truly understand the extent to which they altered our Holy Bible to create the New World Translation, you can see it at watchtower.org. Consider these warnings if you go there, though: they claim the NWT is an accurate translation of the Holy Bible, they dislike the Church and their website is riddled with anti-Catholicism, they believe they are the original Church (re-somethinged after 1,846 years) and that the Catholic Church is apostate (Mormons claimed it first), and if you ask a question they don’t want to answer they usually give you several verses out-of-context from the NWT and answer questions close to the question you asked, but not quite. This has been my experience, over and over, but especially with one JW “apologist.”
 
Gottle_of_Geer said:

The argument could be made thus:​

Click to expand...
God is superior to Jesus, who is a creature - but is instead the highest of creatures; think of exaggerated Mariology in Catholicism, & apply that to Jesus, “and then some”. Jesus could be a created being through whom God (the “Jehovah God” of JW doctrine) works; so the works could be Divine, but not be proper to Jesus. As with a boxing-glove on a boxer’s hand, so here: Jesus “packs a punch” not because He is God, but because God “works through” him. The glove is nothing without the boxer - take the gloves away, & Muhammed Ali can do nothing through them; they are just gloves, unable to knock out anything. So with Jesus. Jesus’ very high place does not absolutely require it to be his by right & by nature - & however high he is, God can still be higher.

The word “god” is not used of God alone in the OT - & the OT is quoted in the NT for some of the “proof-texts” for Jesus’ Divinity.

Hebrews 2
1 Therefore ought we more diligently to observe the things which we have heard lest perhaps we should let them slip. 2 For if the word spoken by angels became steadfast and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompense of reward: 3 How shall we escape if we neglect so great salvation? Which, having begun to be declared by the Lord, was confirmed unto us by them that heard him. 4 God also bearing them witness by signs and wonders and divers miracles and distributions of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will. 5 For God hath not subjected unto angels the world to come, whereof we speak. 6 But one in a certain place hath testified, saying: What is man, that thou art mindful of him? Or the son of man, that thou visitest him? 7 Thou hast made him a little lower than the angels: thou hast crowned him with glory and honour and hast set him over the works of thy hands. 8 Thou hast subjected all things under his feet. For in that he hath subjected all things to him he left nothing not subject to him. But now we see not as yet all things subject to him. 9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour: that, through the grace of God he might taste death for all.
10 For it became him for whom are all things and by whom are all things, **who had brought many children into glory, to perfect the author of their salvation, by his **passion.

The final meaning - only GOD came perform the greatest act of love and reparation for man.
The last part signifies** it is God whom all things are made - brought glory to men thru His passion.**

No other argument - no matter the way man sees it - can be invoked from that passage.

God lowered Himself lower than angels - becoming to Himself the creature for the created in order to die for His creatures.
 
Parce_Domine said:
As I recall: they don’t acknowledge birthdays because somewhere there is one verse in the Bible that says the day of death is more important than the day of birth. (They know the verse, as they are extremely well trained in recitation.) They don’t celebrate Christmas for a few reasons: the actual date of Christ’s birth is unknown, the Church set the date for “Christ’s Mass” to celebrate the tremendous gift of God being born as man and they do not like the Church, they don’t accept the divinity of Christ so to them it doesn’t matter when the Son was born, and the whole birthday vs. deathday thing.

As to why they think Jesus is Michael the Archangel, that’s because Christ’s glorious return will include a loud trumpet blast by the Archangel. Although why they say Michael instead of Gabriel, I don’t understand. In the Bible, it’s generally Gabriel who announces a great event/arrival.

The rest of it has already been explained somewhat, but to truly understand the extent to which they altered our Holy Bible to create the New World Translation, you can see it at watchtower.org. Consider these warnings if you go there, though: they claim the NWT is an accurate translation of the Holy Bible, they dislike the Church and their website is riddled with anti-Catholicism, they believe they are the original Church (re-somethinged after 1,846 years) and that the Catholic Church is apostate (Mormons claimed it first), and if you ask a question they don’t want to answer they usually give you several verses out-of-context from the NWT and answer questions close to the question you asked, but not quite. This has been my experience, over and over, but especially with one JW “apologist.”
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The date doesn’t really matter - but the fact the scriptures show us that His birth is to be celebrated - since scriptures are our example.

Since Heavenly Hosts sang in praise for mankind to do the same.

The shepherds saw and heard them.

SO if Heaven can rejoice and celebrate - who are the JW’s in comparison?
Are they better than the Angels who said God wanted the world to celebrate???
 
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