Can a Mass Have more "teaching?

[JRKH]

This might be a silly question/comment/observation, but I have been thinking about it for awhile and thought I’d like to get feedback…It might take a bit to explain…Lets’ see if I can be brief…

Many protestant churches have less of a “liturgical” format and more of a “preaching” and “praise and worship” format. most of these groups will periodically have a “Lords supper” (once a month/once a quarter etc.)

I have heard people from these backgrounds express that it seems that the sermons at Catholic masses are short, dry, not compelling etc.

The Holy Father has instituted a - Oh what’s the term - - - an ordinariate for Anglicans to come into the Church and retain many of their liturgical practices.

So -

For the sake of discussion, say there are folks coming from these other backgrounds who would like to have a mass that reflects their “liturgical practices”, or “worship practices”

Is there anything in the rubrics of the mass that would prevent a sermon from being an hour long, then 20 minutes for the Liturgy of the Eucharist and then mass is ended?
In short, is the length of the sermon restricted?

Peace
James

 

[benedictgal]

The homily (and this is the term that the Church uses) is not the end all and the be all of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. While the homily forms an important part of the Liturgy of the Word, we cannot set aside the Sacrifice, the Holy Eucharist.

In the Masses that the Holy Father celebrates, he offers the model for balance. The homily is about 10-20 minutes long, but, it is quite rich in exegis. The Liturgy of the Eucharist is celebrated with great reverence, dignity and solemnity, and, with great care. Priests can do well to examine the Holy Father’s homilies and maybe even pattern theirs after his. The Holy Father did strongly recommend, in Verbum Domini, that the quality of the homilies preached during Mass greatly improve. He is offering himself as the model.

As far as the Ordinariate is concerned, we should bear in mind that the Anglicans borrowed almost wholesale (with some exceptions) our Mass and pretty much translated the Latin EF into English (again, with lots of modifications). Thus, their “liturgy” almost parallels ours. We cannot say the same for the other Protestant communities. Theirs are primarily based on the Word, but, have no Sacrifice.

 

[JRKH]

The homily (and this is the term that the Church uses) is not the end all and the be all of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. While the homily forms an important part of the Liturgy of the Word, we cannot set aside the Sacrifice, the Holy Eucharist.

Benedictgal,
I’m sorry if I gave the wrong impression, I was not advocating "sett(ing) aside the Sacrifice, the Holy Eucharist. I was just asking if the length of the Sermon (Homily) is restricted…
The Liturgy of the Eucharist is pretty well set and even celebrated reverently it doesn’t take much more than maybe 25 minutes, depending on how many are receiving communion. The “normal” Sunday mass usually takes an hour or a little less.
Our protestant brothers often spend 1 1/2 or 2 hours at their services with much of that time devoted to the sermon/homily/preaching or whatever term one wishes to use.
So if we had converts who so desired to have a mass with an expanded Homily, would there be anything official to prevent it?

Peace
James

 

[Claire_from_DE]

I think the instructions say that the Liturgy of the Word and the Liturgy of the Eucharist should be fairly equal in length.

Most Sunday Masses I’ve been to have lasted from one to one and a half hours, the longer ones being the Masses in Spanish, and those at Charismatic conferences.

I’ve been to quite a few Presbyterian and Methodist services and can’t say I’ve always felt the sermons were ‘compelling’. Baptist and Evangelical services are a bit more lively, sermon wise.

If Catholics sang all the verses of the hymns like the Protestants do Mass would be longer.

 

[benedictgal]

Benedictgal,
I’m sorry if I gave the wrong impression, I was not advocating "sett(ing) aside the Sacrifice, the Holy Eucharist. I was just asking if the length of the Sermon (Homily) is restricted…
The Liturgy of the Eucharist is pretty well set and even celebrated reverently it doesn’t take much more than maybe 25 minutes, depending on how many are receiving communion. The “normal” Sunday mass usually takes an hour or a little less.
Our protestant brothers often spend 1 1/2 or 2 hours at their services with much of that time devoted to the sermon/homily/preaching or whatever term one wishes to use.
So if we had converts who so desired to have a mass with an expanded Homily, would there be anything official to prevent it?

Peace
James

We have to look at Tradition. The reason why Protestants spend so much time with the Word is because that is all they have. They do not have a liturgical tradition, per se. Even if they were to offer “communion”, it is more of a symbol than anything else.

Granted, there maybe some priests who are gifted to the point that they can go on for an hour (and some will do so if they conjoin the celebration of the Mass with the preaching of a mission); however, there should be a balance between the Liturgy of the Word and the Liturgy of the Eucharist.

There are also other opportunities for preaching, such as the aforementioned Parish missions, Holy Hour, Communal Penance services and the Liturgy of the Hours.

 

[TrueLight]

We have to look at Tradition. The reason why Protestants spend so much time with the Word is because that is all they have. They do not have a liturgical tradition, per se. Even if they were to offer “communion”, it is more of a symbol than anything else.

Granted, there maybe some priests who are gifted to the point that they can go on for an hour (and some will do so if they conjoin the celebration of the Mass with the preaching of a mission); however, there should be a balance between the Liturgy of the Word and the Liturgy of the Eucharist.

There are also other opportunities for preaching, such as the aforementioned Parish missions, Holy Hour, Communal Penance services and the Liturgy of the Hours.

Protestants have praise and worship and prayer as well, not just the preaching.
Some churches also spend a fair amount of time singing songs, listening to the choir and alternatively singing and praying.

So some, not all, denominations spend a lot of time on the Word and some spend a lot of time on the praise and worship.

 

[benedictgal]

Protestants have praise and worship and prayer as well, not just the preaching.
Some churches also spend a fair amount of time singing songs, listening to the choir and alternatively singing and praying.

So some, not all, denominations spend a lot of time on the Word and some spend a lot of time on the praise and worship.

However, they do not have the Sacrifiical component. The Word is not merely confined to the “sermon”, as it is to the reading of Sacred Scripture.

 

[TrueLight]

However, they do not have the Sacrifiical component. The Word is not merely confined to the “sermon”, as it is to the reading of Sacred Scripture.

Either way, that has nothing to do with the length of a homily. I have heard 5 minute homilies, and 20 minute homilies. I’m sure you’ve heard sermons that ran the gamut.

I believe there should be some sort of teaching at mass, because that’s the most likely place to find Catholics, not at bible studies.

So why not have a well-developed homily in addtion to the Sacrificial component?

 

[Sarahforgiven]

A Homily is not the same as a Sermon. They are different altogether & have different history, purpose, & context.

 

[TrueLight]

A Homily is not the same as a Sermon. They are different altogether & have different history, purpose, & context.

What is the difference anyway? At one time priests used to preach sermons right?

 

[benedictgal]

What is the difference anyway? At one time priests used to preach sermons right?

Perhaps this exerpt from Verbum Domini may help explain things a little better and answer the question you had previously addressed to me:

The importance of the homily

Each member of the People of God “has different duties and responsibilities with respect to the word of God. Accordingly, the faithful listen to God’s word and meditate on it, but those who have the office of teaching by virtue of sacred ordination or have been entrusted with exercising that ministry”, namely, bishops, priests and deacons, “expound the word of God”.[208] Hence we can understand the attention paid to the homily throughout the Synod. In the Apostolic Exhortation Sacramentum Caritatis, I pointed out that “given the importance of the word of God, the quality of homilies needs to be improved. The homily ‘is part of the liturgical action’ and is meant to foster a deeper understanding of the word of God, so that it can bear fruit in the lives of the faithful”.[209] The homily is a means of bringing the scriptural message to life in a way that helps the faithful to realize that God’s word is present and at work in their everyday lives. It should lead to an understanding of the mystery being celebrated, serve as a summons to mission, and prepare the assembly for the profession of faith, the universal prayer and the Eucharistic liturgy. Consequently, those who have been charged with preaching by virtue of a specific ministry ought to take this task to heart. Generic and abstract homilies which obscure the directness of God’s word should be avoided, as well as useless digressions which risk drawing greater attention to the preacher than to the heart of the Gospel message. The faithful should be able to perceive clearly that the preacher has a compelling desire to present Christ, who must stand at the centre of every homily. For this reason preachers need to be in close and constant contact with the sacred text;[210] they should prepare for the homily by meditation and prayer, so as to preach with conviction and passion. The synodal assembly asked that the following questions be kept in mind: “What are the Scriptures being proclaimed saying? What do they say to me personally? What should I say to the community in the light of its concrete situation?[211] The preacher “should be the first to hear the word of God which he proclaims”,[212] since, as Saint Augustine says: “He is undoubtedly barren who preaches outwardly the word of God without hearing it inwardly”.[213] The homily for Sundays and solemnities should be prepared carefully, without neglecting, whenever possible, to offer at weekday Masses cum populo brief and timely reflections which can help the faithful to welcome the word which was proclaimed and to let it bear fruit in their lives.

Thus, Pope Benedict XVI uses the word “homily” and he also explains how such should be prepared and preached. Maybe this can even answer the question the OP raised.

 

[TrueLight]

Perhaps this exerpt from Verbum Domini may help explain things a little better and answer the question you had previously addressed to me:

Thus, Pope Benedict XVI uses the word “homily” and he also explains how such should be prepared and preached. Maybe this can even answer the question the OP raised.

Well thank you.

How is that different from a sermon which also expounds the word of God?

 

[Sarahforgiven]

What is the difference anyway? At one time priests used to preach sermons right?

Just Google both the Wikipedia outlines the difference in a simple form that adds to the other answers here

 

[TrueLight]

Just Google both the Wikipedia outlines the difference in a simple form that adds to the other answers here

That’s helpful.

Time for bed!

 

[tlimon]

Well, Sunday school or catechesis is not liturgy. Even Mormons recognize that. They have the first hour dedicated to “sacrament.” After that, they have Sunday school and priesthood/relief society.

 

[Rahn]

Either way, that has nothing to do with the length of a homily. I have heard 5 minute homilies, and 20 minute homilies. I’m sure you’ve heard sermons that ran the gamut.

I believe there should be some sort of teaching at mass, because that’s the most likely place to find Catholics, not at bible studies.

So why not have a well-developed homily in addtion to the Sacrificial component?

Couldn’t agree more. It’s not so much the length as the content. The homily is topical in nature, it’s the application of the three readings to the common theme that weaves through them. If you’re seeking more of an expository format (i.e. focusing on one book of the Bible and going from chapter to chapter), that’s more of a Bible study in my eyes.

For a lot of Catholics, the three readings and the homily is their only exposure to the word of God, which makes the homily an important tool for feeding God’s sheep His word.

 

[Revert_43]

This gets brought up a lot.

The main focus of Protestant Sunday Services is preaching, the pastor chooses scripture and discusses it. The Churches I belonged to when on sabbatical would break into small groups during the week and discuss the scripture further. Worship is debatable (Sorry I prefer more traditional methods of worship such as the organ or Gregorian Chant that’s just my preferences “don’t tase me bro”).

The main focus of the Catholic Mass is to worship God, Catholics are expected to teach themselves and devote Sunday to worship.

This is a fundamental difference and widely misunderstood and one of the reasons many Catholics have left Catholicism for Protestantism, they are bored and aren’t getting anything out of the homilies.

Speaking of homilies I think the USCCB is about to release a new document on homilies, courageouspriest.com/usccb-planning-release-document-homilies

 

[TrueLight]

The main focus of the Catholic Mass is to worship God

From what I have seen, I would say, the highlight, so to speak or the Apex of the mass is the consecration and then receiving communion.

The highlight of the Evangelical service is the Word - the Sermon.
However everything that happens before or after that is praise and worship. Some of the more charismatic churches focus more on worship than others. Protestants go to church to WORSHIP God. So I will never agree that Catholics focus on worshipping God and Protestants don’t.

(And yes I know not every Evangelical is the same. It has been my experience in the Baptist, Pentecostal and Non-denominational churches.)

Catholics are expected to teach themselves…

That’s the problem. For the most part that is not happening.

Also why can’t we have a good homily AND a worshipful mass?

Speaking of homilies I think the USCCB is about to release a new document on homilies, courageouspriest.com/usccb-planning-release-document-homilies

Thanks.

 

[Claire_from_DE]

This is a fundamental difference and widely misunderstood and one of the reasons many Catholics have left Catholicism for Protestantism, they are bored and aren’t getting anything out of the homilies.

Speaking of homilies I think the USCCB is about to release a new document on homilies, courageouspriest.com/usccb-planning-release-document-homilies

Well, to get anything out of them you actually have to listen to the readings and the homily in an expectation that God is going to say something to you through them. Not all priests are gifted preachers but all have something to offer. Some people would be bored by Jesus speaking in person.

It sounds as though they are just in the planning stages of the document. I won’t hold my breath.

 

[TrueLight]

Speaking of homilies I think the USCCB is about to release a new document on homilies, courageouspriest.com/usccb-planning-release-document-homilies

I’m excited!