Can a Mass like this be valid?

[Roselander]

A couple of days ago the Chicago Tribune ran a nice article about a priest from the Chicago Archdiocese who volunteered to be an army chaplain in Iraq. The article said that because the U.S. army won’t permit him to use wine, he says Mass without wine in the chalice. How can this be?

 

[thann]

I don’t know the answer to your question, although I would certainly be interested as to why the Army denies him access to the necessary wine for consecration. If it’s a concern about alcohol in a largely Muslim country, he could always consecrate mustum.

At any rate, for folks who want to read the article in question, here it is. The mention of the empty chalice is toward the bottom of the second page.

'thann

 

[palmas85]

I don’t know the answer to your question, although I would certainly be interested as to why the Army denies him access to the necessary wine for consecration. If it’s a concern about alcohol in a largely Muslim country, he could always consecrate mustum.

At any rate, for folks who want to read the article in question, here it is. The mention of the empty chalice is toward the bottom of the second page.

'thann

It does sound like some beaurocratic idea though. I can certainly see it happening.

 

[CatholicNick]

Wine consecrated has to be Grape wine with no additives.

Nothing more, nothing less. If it is anything else, it is invalid matter for the Sacrament.

 

[Joan_M]

A couple of days ago the Chicago Tribune ran a nice article about a priest from the Chicago Archdiocese who volunteered to be an army chaplain in Iraq. The article said that because the U.S. army won’t permit him to use wine, he says Mass without wine in the chalice. How can this be?

As far as I am aware, consecrating only one species (the bread), the Mass will not be valid. It is necessary to consecrate woth bread and wine for validity.

The priest must know this.

Any experts out there?

 

[dylanschrader]

The Code of Canon Law says this regarding the consecration of the bread and wine:

Can. 927 It is absolutely forbidden, even in extreme urgent necessity, to consecrate one matter without the other or even both outside the eucharistic celebration.

If a priest consecrates only bread and not wine, the bread is still validly consecrated, that is, transubstantiation still takes place, but he has not celebrated Mass.

 

[BlestOne]

I don’t know the answer to your question, although I would certainly be interested as to why the Army denies him access to the necessary wine for consecration. If it’s a concern about alcohol in a largely Muslim country, he could always consecrate mustum.

At any rate, for folks who want to read the article in question, here it is. The mention of the empty chalice is toward the bottom of the second page.

'thann

I have no idea where they could be talking about because military chaplains ARE allowed sacramental wine for the consecration. Just as they are allowed a certain number of Bibles in a Muslim country that bans them. My pastor is an Air Force Reserve chaplain, we have talked extensively about Iraq since he has been deployed there and my brother has been over 4 times for the Army. BTW, your link requires a login… is the article short enough to copy and paste parts of it?

 

[drafdog]

The use of unfermented grape juice is permitted. There are alcoholic priests who never use wine, even the reduced alcohol variety. The Mass is valid with the approved substitute. If the approved substitute is not immediately available to the celebrant, the congregation is absolved of their obligation to attend Mass, or in the case of a war zone, the obligation is canceled entirely. Yes, it is good to be able to have Mass, but in a war zone you are not required to go to Mass. It’s one of those “extraordinary circumstances.”

Matthew

 

[tee_eff_em]

The Code of Canon Law says this regarding the consecration of the bread and wine:

Can. 927 It is absolutely forbidden, even in extreme urgent necessity, to consecrate one matter without the other or even both outside the eucharistic celebration.

I’m not even sure you can say he has not celebrated Mass? I would simply echo the canon: He has done something that ought not be done – Something forbidden.

But, FWIW, I concur: The consecration of bread alone would be valid but is illicit.

:twocents:
tee
Not A Canon Lawyer

 

[BAIRBRE]

how can a mass be valid when pedophile false priests were consecrating …???

.I wouldn’t worry about the army chaplain…At least he is saying Mass in a war zone…many brave soldiers, chaplains, journalists and even innocent Iraquis are facing death and terror. The chaplain is a brave man and holy man for saying Mass.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

The use of unfermented grape juice is permitted. There are alcoholic priests who never use wine, even the reduced alcohol variety. The Mass is valid with the approved substitute. If the approved substitute is not immediately available to the celebrant, the congregation is absolved of their obligation to attend Mass, or in the case of a war zone, the obligation is canceled entirely. Yes, it is good to be able to have Mass, but in a war zone you are not required to go to Mass. It’s one of those “extraordinary circumstances.”

Matthew

Mass is incomplete unless the main celebrant receives under BOTH forms.

Canon Law forbids the consecration of one element without the other.

 

[Genesis315]

The Sacrificial nature of the Mass requires both. It is not a sacrifice without the Blood.

 

[Fidelia]

The use of unfermented grape juice is permitted. There are alcoholic priests who never use wine, even the reduced alcohol variety. The Mass is valid with the approved substitute. If the approved substitute is not immediately available to the celebrant, the congregation is absolved of their obligation to attend Mass, or in the case of a war zone, the obligation is canceled entirely. Yes, it is good to be able to have Mass, but in a war zone you are not required to go to Mass. It’s one of those “extraordinary circumstances.”

Matthew

Grape juice is no longer allowed. A priest recently told me. It has to be wine.

 

[LRThunder]

how can a mass be valid when pedophile false priests were consecrating …???

.I wouldn’t worry about the army chaplain…At least he is saying Mass in a war zone…many brave soldiers, chaplains, journalists and even innocent Iraquis are facing death and terror. The chaplain is a brave man and holy man for saying Mass.

The validity or licity of the Mass or any of the Sacraments is not dependent on the character of the priest, although I believe the priest cannot have any unconfessed mortal sin if he is to celebrate Mass.

 

[az_4_faith]

How do the Chaldean Catholic priests consecrate wine in Iraq? They’ve been there for centuries.

 

[puzzleannie]

several young men of our parish have returned from tours in Iraq as well as Afghanistan and other Muslim countries, and report attending Masses many times, in the field and at bases, where Eucharist was consecrated under both forms of bread and wine, so I don’t know what this article refers to. It is more common that only the priest drinks the precious blood and the soldiers receive only the host.

They all without exception speak highly of the chaplains who serve them, although they do not, in the field, always have access to a Catholic chaplain.

 

[MusicMan]

I think this is a matter best left to the Military Archdiocese. We can debate this and debate this, but perhaps they know something we don’t. This is an extraordinary circumstance and they may have certain permissions and exceptions given them by Rome that we don’t need to be aware of.

In don’t mind occassionally having to police my own church and diocese for grave abuses, but I’m not going to even think of trying to police the Military Archdiocese based on a newspaper article.

 

[BobP123]

If a priest consecrates only bread and not wine, the bread is still validly consecrated, that is, transubstantiation still takes place, but he has not celebrated Mass.

I’m not too sure about that. If we are to believe the Sacrifice is the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ, then we better have consecration of both species or the Sacrifice is incomplete and is not most pleasing to God.

But I could be wrong.

 

[BobP123]

how can a mass be valid when pedophile false priests were consecrating …???

Actually the pedophile part does not make it invalid, but the false priest does. As long as you have a duly authorized priest and the correct form, matter, intention is there, you have a valid consecration.

Here’s a question for you, though. I know someone who used to be a Catholic priest but now has turned into a Lutheran minister. Does he still consecrate validly as long as he has the correct form, matter, and intention?

 

[MusicMan]

Here’s a question for you, though. I know someone who used to be a Catholic priest but now has turned into a Lutheran minister. Does he still consecrate validly as long as he has the correct form, matter, and intention?

Yes, although he does so illicitly. I would question whether or not a Catholic priest who converted to a Lutheran denomination would have correct intention, based upon Lutheran beliefs on the Eucharist.