Can a Mass like this be valid?

[blackrobe]

how can a mass be valid when pedophile false priests were consecrating …???

You seem to have fallen prey to the Donatist heresy. The state of a priest’s moral life has no effect on the powers of his office. A validly ordained priest is a priest forever. I suppose one might say the change effected by Holy Orders is ontological whereas the priest’s subsequent behavior is accidental with respect to his standing as a priest.

JSA+

 

[blackrobe]

The validity or licity of the Mass or any of the Sacraments is not dependent on the character of the priest, although I believe the priest cannot have any unconfessed mortal sin if he is to celebrate Mass.

I await an authoritative answer, but my understanding is that a Mass celebrated by a priest in mortal sin is valid but illicit and the priest commits sacrilege.

JSA+

 

[BAIRBRE]

The validity or licity of the Mass or any of the Sacraments is not dependent on the character of the priest, although I believe the priest cannot have any unconfessed mortal sin if he is to celebrate Mass.

Thanks…I understand…

 

[BAIRBRE]

Actually the pedophile part does not make it invalid, but the false priest does. As long as you have a duly authorized priest and the correct form, matter, intention is there, you have a valid consecration.

Here’s a question for you, though. I know someone who used to be a Catholic priest but now has turned into a Lutheran minister. Does he still consecrate validly as long as he has the correct form, matter, and intention?

yes?

 

[tee_eff_em]

I await an authoritative answer, but my understanding is that a Mass celebrated by a priest in mortal sin is valid but illicit and the priest commits sacrilege.

My reading of the canon says: “It depends” (on the gravity of the reason for doing so).

Can. 916 Anyone who is conscious of grave sin may not celebrate Mass or receive the Body of the Lord without previously having been to sacramental confession, unless there is a grave reason and there is no opportunity to confess; in this case the person is to remember the obligation to make an act of perfect contrition, which includes the resolve to go to confession as soon as possible.

tee
Still Not A Canon Lawyer

 

[BAIRBRE]

You seem to have fallen prey to the Donatist heresy. The state of a priest’s moral life has no effect on the powers of his office. A validly ordained priest is a priest forever. I suppose one might say the change effected by Holy Orders is ontological whereas the priest’s subsequent behavior is accidental with respect to his standing as a priest.

JSA+

I don’t understand how a priest is forever if maybe his true pursuit of the priesthood was due to his sin and sickness. That would make him not a priest at all. Ordained or not.

Alot of times …it wasn’t a one offense. In confession you are supposed to be sorry for your sins and not to repeat them. Some of these individuals had no remorse whatso ever.

Isn’t it true that some Catholics were excommunicated for far less serious sins?

I’m not saying that this type of individual shouldn’t be forgiven…However, they should have been defrocked along time ago instead of their behavior being condoned.

If anyone else did these heinous crimes, they would be locked up? What makes these individuals above the law?

There are many Catholics who are involved in law enforcement who feel the same way.

 

[BAIRBRE]

also what is the donaist heresy???

Whatever happened to the vow of chasity?

 

[tee_eff_em]

I don’t understand how a priest is forever if maybe his true pursuit of the priesthood was due to his sin and sickness. That would make him not a priest at all. Ordained or not.

A *validly *ordained priest is a priest forever. Pre-existing mental illness would negatively affect the validity of the ordination.

Alot of times …it wasn’t a one offense. In confession you are supposed to be sorry for your sins and not to repeat them. Some of these individuals had no remorse whatso ever.

Isn’t it true that some Catholics were excommunicated for far less serious sins?

I am not aware of any. Do you have a specific case in mind?

I’m not saying that this type of individual shouldn’t be forgiven…However, they should have been defrocked along time ago instead of their behavior being condoned.

If anyone else did these heinous crimes, they would be locked up? What makes these individuals above the law?

The statute of limitations is likewise part of the law, both civil and canon. That too is a matter of justice.

tee

 

[Digitonomy]

also what is the donaist heresy???

When in doubt, the Catholic Encyclopedia is usually a reliable (though sometimes out-of-date) source. On this issue it’s pretty long-winded, so instead here’s how Wikipedia explains it:

The second question was the validity of sacraments confected by priests and bishops who had been apostates under the persecution. The Donatists held that all such sacraments were invalid: by their sinful act, such clerics had rendered themselves incapable of celebrating valid sacraments. This is known as: ex opere operantis - Latin for from the work of the one doing the working, that is, that the validity of the sacrament depends upon the worthyness and holiness of the minister confecting it. The Catholic position was (and is): ex opere operato - from the work having been worked, in other words, that the validity of the sacrament depends upon the holiness of God, the minister being a mere instrument of God’s work, so that any priest or bishop, even one in a state of mortal sin, who speaks the formula of the sacrament with valid matter and the intent of causing the sacrament to occur acts validly.

bairbre:

Whatever happened to the vow of chasity?

I assume this is a rhetorical question?

 

[Marian_Carroll]

GENERAL NOTICE

The topic of this thread is:

The article said that because the U.S. army won’t permit him to use wine, he says Mass without wine in the chalice. How can this be?

Those wishing to discuss other topics should take the opportunity to join a thread already in progress or initiate one in the appropriate forum. Your cooperation in not hijacking threads is very much appreciated.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

I await an authoritative answer, but my understanding is that a Mass celebrated by a priest in mortal sin is valid but illicit and the priest commits sacrilege.

JSA+

A Mass celebrated by any validly Ordained priest in a valid manner is a valid Mass, condition of the priests soul is immaterial to the validity of the Sacrament.

 

[drafdog]

Grape juice is no longer allowed. A priest recently told me. It has to be wine.

I guess the Canon lawyers responsible have never met an alcoholic. Either that or your priest was mistaken.

Matthew

 

[BobP123]

Yes, although he does so illicitly. I would question whether or not a Catholic priest who converted to a Lutheran denomination would have correct intention, based upon Lutheran beliefs on the Eucharist.

I know this is a tough one, especially because in these murky waters of Vatican II, Lutherans and, in fact, all other Christian churches are supposedly in communion with Rome, though their communion is not perfect.

 

[Seatuck]

I guess the Canon lawyers responsible have never met an alcoholic. Either that or your priest was mistaken.

Matthew

Mustum may be used by alcoholic priests if they are able. Mustum has a small percentage of alcohol. It is not grape juice.They are made differently.

usccb.org/liturgy/innews/1103.shtml

ewtn.com/library/Liturgy/zlitur133.htm

 

[wanner47]

I guess the Canon lawyers responsible have never met an alcoholic. Either that or your priest was mistaken.

Matthew

Actually, alcoholic priests are permitted to use mustum.

By “mustum” is understood fresh juice from grapes or juice preserved by suspending its fermentation (by means of freezing or other methods which do not alter its nature).

source

ETA: What Seatuck said – didn’t see his reply.

 

[MusicMan]

It is entirely possible that the Military Archdiocese has broad powers granted it by Rome to allow priests to do things that normally are considered abuses or would invalidate the Mass. If this priest is assigned to a unit that has such close interaction with the Iraqi people that alcohol of any kind it forbidden, I would expect that the Military Archdiocese has the power to allow him to say Mass with an empty chalice. I would rather see us give this priest and his superiors the benefit of the doubt than be concerned about the validity of his Masses.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

It is entirely possible that the Military Archdiocese has broad powers granted it by Rome to allow priests to do things that normally are considered abuses or would invalidate the Mass. If this priest is assigned to a unit that has such close interaction with the Iraqi people that alcohol of any kind it forbidden, I would expect that the Military Archdiocese has the power to allow him to say Mass with an empty chalice. I would rather see us give this priest and his superiors the benefit of the doubt than be concerned about the validity of his Masses.

There are many instances historically where Rome has said that Mass could not be celebrated until wine was available by supply ship in places where grapes would not grow, or in the case of priests in the early Western US, until wheat Hosts were available, corn was not acceptable. Celebrating Mass with no wine in the chalice was not permitted.

 

[Seatuck]

It is entirely possible that the Military Archdiocese has broad powers granted it by Rome to allow priests to do things that normally are considered abuses or would invalidate the Mass. If this priest is assigned to a unit that has such close interaction with the Iraqi people that alcohol of any kind it forbidden, I would expect that the Military Archdiocese has the power to allow him to say Mass with an empty chalice. I would rather see us give this priest and his superiors the benefit of the doubt than be concerned about the validity of his Masses.

No , I don’t believe this is the case. I’ve asked a few men I know who work with the Chaplains over in the combat zone and they say no. I’ve looked at the official website and they don’t seem to have any indults.

milarch.org/

 

[MusicMan]

Sorry you all disagree with me. I maintain that the chaplains and the Military Archdiocese deserve the benefit of the doubt. So, unfortunately, it seems my participation in this particular thread comes to an end. Cheers!

 

[Digitonomy]

There are many instances historically where Rome has said that Mass could not be celebrated until wine was available by supply ship in places where grapes would not grow, or in the case of priests in the early Western US, until wheat Hosts were available, corn was not acceptable.

Fascinating. Do you have a source where I can read more about these difficult circumstances?