Can a Non catholic man have his feet washed on Holy Thursday?

[Lapey]

I have no idea what point you are trying to make. Middle age men? What?
My point is that it does not have to be 12men, or 12 men and women, or all women or children…whatever…this does not have to be accurate in a historical way. it doesn’t have to be the number 12.

Yes it does. It is done this way precisely because of the historical relationship of the evening as a reenactment of the Lord’s Supper, that is why it is called the Mass of the Lord’s Supper." The rubrics do not specifically read 12, but they most definitely read “men” exclusively. that may not be politically correct but it is in fact accurate.

PS. What are you trying to make Cardinal O’Malley’s words mean???

 

[Lapey]

I was wondering how long it would take for this thread to get into a men/vs women’s feet. Every year in our parish it has been mostly RCIA canidates coming into the church…men and yes women. Does not bother me at all.

What is interesting is to watch people fight tooth and nail over this and miss so many other things… Like my parents…who insist it must be men…but then will insist that they are ok receiving communion without my stepmom’s annulment because that is just a “man made” rule. To me…making sure I am in a proper state of grace before receiving communion is much more important then the fact that the priest washed my feet last year…just saying…

Sorry but it does matter, it is the way Jesus did things that night, whaty else can we change from that night? Can we change the bread to pizza? Or the wine to whisky?

Everytime we change things, we corrupt it for our own gain. It is what it is, 12 men should have their feet washed, a good pastor will insure this is exactly what happens. Others will allow the abuse to continue.

 

[lutherlic]

Thank you Deacon Lapey!

Father Z also addresses this topic today: QUAERITUR: Holy Thursday Mandatum and female feet. Wherein advice is sought and Fr. Z ranteth

He also comments on viri selecti and more:

This whole debate has been cleared up more than once by the Holy See, especially in the 1988 document Paschales solemnitatis of the Congregation for Divine Worship and Discipline of the Sacraments.

Moreover, the rubrics of the 2002 Missale Romanum retain the viri selecti. Viri cannot include “females”. Viri is an exclusive term.

I don’t believe any Conference of Bishops has ever received explicit approval from the Holy See for a variation, and only the Holy See can do that.

Conferences of bishops, individual bishops, and pastors all lack the authority to change this on their own.

To do it is wrong.

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

Sorry but it does matter, it is the way Jesus did things that night, whaty else can we change from that night? Can we change the bread to pizza? Or the wine to whisky?

Everytime we change things, we corrupt it for our own gain. It is what it is, 12 men should have their feet washed, a good pastor will insure this is exactly what happens. Others will allow the abuse to continue.

Sorry but my priest is a VERY good priest and Holy…so you can put away your accusations!

Even the USCCB is unclear on this.

Changing bread to pizza is so VERY different and much more serious then a woman’s feet getting washed…which was my whole point…but you seemed to have missed that…

 

[Lapey]

Sorry but my priest is a VERY good priest and Holy…so you can put away your accusations!

Even the USCCB is unclear on this.

Changing bread to pizza is so VERY different and much more serious then a woman’s feet getting washed…which was my whole point…but you seemed to have missed that…Didn’t miss your point at all…but you missed the point of the way the Liturgy is directed to be celebrated. It’s not about men or women, it’s about doing what Jesus did. He did not wash the feet of, nor did He ordain women. Most understand this simple concept. This is not an argument about what could, or should be done, but what was done. Answer that question and you find your answer…

It was just a joke, I was being absurd. I make no accusations. Your priest has the same rubrics for the celebration of the Lord’s Supper Mass as my pastor. If he chooses to not follow it, well it is an illicit action. This has no meaning whether he is a good man, priest, or whether he is holy; but it does say he can be disobedient.

I don’t comment on this to pass judgment on anyone, only correct he misstatements made here. Even if we do not agree with guidelines, they are still the guidelines; it’s up to us to follow.

Can the discussion get back to the OP? Is it required that he men be Catholic? I say yes.

PS. Please show me where the current day USCCB is unsure about this, not from the 80s where PC was born.

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

It was just a joke, I was being absurd. I make no accusations. Your priest has the same rubrics for the celebration of the Lord’s Supper Mass as my pastor. If he chooses to not follow it, well it is an illicit action. This has no meaning whether he is a good man, priest, or whether he is holy; but it does say he can be disobedient.

I don’t comment on this to pass judgment on anyone, only correct he misstatements made here. Even if we do not agree with guidelines, they are still the guidelines; it’s up to us to follow.

Can the discussion get back to the OP? Is it required that he men be Catholic? I say yes.

PS. Please show me where the current day USCCB is unsure about this, not from the 80s where PC was born.

usccb.org/prayer-and-worship/liturgical-resources/triduum/holy-thursday-mandatum.cfm

4.Because the gospel of the mandatum read on Holy Thursday also depicts Jesus as the “Teacher and Lord” who humbly serves his disciples by performing this extraordinary gesture which goes beyond the laws of hospitality,2 the element of humble service has accentuated the celebration of the foot washing rite in the United States over the last decade or more. In this regard, it has become customary in many places to invite both men and women to be participants in this rite in recognition of the service that should be given by all the faithful to the Church and to the world. Thus, in the United States, a variation in the rite developed in which not only charity is signified but also humble service.

5.While this variation may differ from the rubric of the Sacramentary which mentions only men (“viri selecti”), it may nevertheless be said that the intention to emphasize service along with charity in the celebration of the rite is an understandable way of accentuating the evangelical command of the Lord, “who came to serve and not to be served,” that all members of the Church must serve one another in love.

6.The liturgy is always an act of ecclesial unity and Christian charity, of which the Holy Thursday foot washing rite is an eminent sign. All should obey the Lord’s new commandment to love one another with an abundance of love, especially at this most sacred time of the liturgical year when the Lord’s passion, death, and resurrection are remembered and celebrated in the powerful rites of the Triduum

So now you can see where it might be confusing…and therefore one might follow one’s own Bishop…and not be disobedient. After all, he promised obedience to the Bishop…no?

 

[Lapey]

usccb.org/prayer-and-worship/liturgical-resources/triduum/holy-thursday-mandatum.cfm

4.Because the gospel of the mandatum read on Holy Thursday also depicts Jesus as the “Teacher and Lord” who humbly serves his disciples by performing this extraordinary gesture which goes beyond the laws of hospitality,2 the element of humble service has accentuated the celebration of the foot washing rite in the United States over the last decade or more. In this regard, it has become customary in many places to invite both men and women to be participants in this rite in recognition of the service that should be given by all the faithful to the Church and to the world. Thus, in the United States, a variation in the rite developed in which not only charity is signified but also humble service.

5.While this variation may differ from the rubric of the Sacramentary which mentions only men (“viri selecti”), it may nevertheless be said that the intention to emphasize service along with charity in the celebration of the rite is an understandable way of accentuating the evangelical command of the Lord, “who came to serve and not to be served,” that all members of the Church must serve one another in love.

6.The liturgy is always an act of ecclesial unity and Christian charity, of which the Holy Thursday foot washing rite is an eminent sign. All should obey the Lord’s new commandment to love one another with an abundance of love, especially at this most sacred time of the liturgical year when the Lord’s passion, death, and resurrection are remembered and celebrated in the powerful rites of the Triduum

So now you can see where it might be confusing…and therefore one might follow one’s own Bishop…and not be disobedient. After all, he promised obedience to the Bishop…no?

Okay, so yes, your Priest it to be obedient to his bishop, as I am to be to my bishop. Here’s where you go astray. The document you site is dated 1987, the document directly addressing this issue is dated 1988. So aren’t your bishop, then your priest, then the deacon required to be obedient to the Holy See?

PASCHALIS SOLLEMNITATIS
The Preparation And Celebration Of The Easter Feasts
Congregation for Divine Worship

Given on January 16, 1988 by the Offices of the Congregation for Divine Worship.

1. The washing of the feet of chosen men which, according to tradition, is performed on this day, represents the service and charity of Christ, who came "not to be served, but to serve.[58] This tradition should be maintained, and its proper significance explained.

 

[AniCS]

Y’all are wrong Here is the link from the USCCB.
Women may have their feet washed.
usccb.org/prayer-and-worship/liturgical-resources/triduum/holy-thursday-mandatum.cfm

In part: Because the gospel of the mandatum read on Holy Thursday also depicts Jesus as the “Teacher and Lord” who humbly serves his disciples by performing this extraordinary gesture which goes beyond the laws of hospitality,2 the element of humble service has accentuated the celebration of the foot washing rite in the United States over the last decade or more. In this regard, it has become customary in many places to invite both men and women to be participants in this rite in recognition of the service that should be given by all the faithful to the Church and to the world. Thus, in the United States, a variation in the rite developed in which not only charity is signified but also humble service.

The USCCB ends with: This is the latest statement of this Secretariat on the question. No subsequent legislation or instructions have necessitated a modification in the statement.

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

Okay, so yes, your Priest it to be obedient to his bishop, as I am to be to my bishop. Here’s where you go astray. The document you site is dated 1987, the document directly addressing this issue is dated 1988. So aren’t your bishop, then your priest, then the deacon required to be obedient to the Holy See?

PASCHALIS SOLLEMNITATIS
The Preparation And Celebration Of The Easter Feasts
Congregation for Divine Worship

Given on January 16, 1988 by the Offices of the Congregation for Divine Worship.

1. The washing of the feet of chosen men which, according to tradition, is performed on this day, represents the service and charity of Christ, who came "not to be served, but to serve.[58] This tradition should be maintained, and its proper significance explained.

See the post above which basically says that there is no update as they (USCCB ) still believes it to be valid.

So…my priest is faithful to his bishop.

A note that the Holy See talks about the significance…not the reinactment like a play but to signify Christs service to us.

I still see nothing that requires they be fully Catholic…

 

[Brendan]

Sooooo?

That was to show you that your assumption was incorrect

if you want to represent only the 12 apostles then maybe it would be more accurate to wash the feet of only ordained men

They were not ordained, therefore it would not be more accurate to wash the feet of only ordained men.

Or did you have another reason for making that statement?

 

[Lapey]

Y’all are wrong Here is the link from the USCCB.
Women may have their feet washed.
usccb.org/prayer-and-worship/liturgical-resources/triduum/holy-thursday-mandatum.cfm

In part: Because the gospel of the mandatum read on Holy Thursday also depicts Jesus as the “Teacher and Lord” who humbly serves his disciples by performing this extraordinary gesture which goes beyond the laws of hospitality,2 the element of humble service has accentuated the celebration of the foot washing rite in the United States over the last decade or more. In this regard, it has become customary in many places to invite both men and women to be participants in this rite in recognition of the service that should be given by all the faithful to the Church and to the world. Thus, in the United States, a variation in the rite developed in which not only charity is signified but also humble service.

The USCCB ends with: This is the latest statement of this Secretariat on the question. No subsequent legislation or instructions have necessitated a modification in the statement.

We’ll have to agree to disagree.

 

[Anna_Claire]

At my current parish there are 12 chairs set up filled by men,women (both old and young) and children. Our pastor washes their feet. It’s very nice but not as moving as what I have experienced at other churches. Each person who comes forward to have his or her feet washed in turn washes the feet of the next person. This means that sometimes children wash a parent’s or a sibling’s feet, or a teen washes the feet of one of our elder parishioners. To see Christ’s mandatum, his command that we do as he had shown us to do, so beautifully fulfilled is a grace for the whole assembly. It’s a joyful experience especially in watching our younger members take up this work so early in their lives. If you have never experienced this form…you have no idea how emotional it is…and you don’t know what you are missing.

 

[Brendan]

. Each person who comes forward to have his or her feet washed in turn washes the feet of the next person. This means that sometimes children wash a parent’s or a sibling’s feet, or a teen washes the feet of one of our elder parishioners. .

Nice, but not Catholic.

I suppose they could do that at the parish festival or something.

 

[Anna_Claire]

Nice, but not Catholic.

I suppose they could do that at the parish festival or something.

NOT CATHOLIC??? So you dont believe Catholics believe this passage…?
"‘When he had washed their feet and put on his outer garments again, he went back to the table. “Do you understand,” he said, “what I have done to you? You call me Master and Lord, and rightly, so I am. If I then have washed your feet, you must wash each other’s feet. I have given you an example so that you may copy what I have done to you. In all truth I tell you, no servant is greater than his master, no messenger is greater than the one who sent him.”’ (Jn. 13.12-16) …

Jesus did not command that only Catholic clergy should wash the feet of only Catholic men. That is not what he meant.

 

[JRRTFAN]

I have a friend that wants to come in to the church and loves participating in Liturgical stuff…and it is a booger to find 12 men in the parish to have their feet washed. is it okay since he is not yet in full communion with the church to do so? Any of the Fathers here can chime in on this? or anyone ?

Sure. The “rite” calls for 12 “vir” = “men” and in my parish it’s opened up to everybody, so it takes a lifetime for everybody (except me, I know what 12 vir means). If the priest only does 12 men in your parish, you’ve got an orthodox priest who understands the concept, it doesn’t matter if the guy is Catholic or not.

 

[Brendan]

NOT CATHOLIC??? So you dont believe Catholics believe this passage…?

We do, we follow it as the Church, lead by the See of Peter, follows it. And in no other way.

his master, no messenger is greater than the one who sent him.”’ (Jn. 13.12-16) …

Jesus did not command that only Catholic clergy should wash the feet of only Catholic men. That is not what he meant.

Are you also one of those who believe that Christ’s command to confect the Eucharist “do this in memory of me” was address to everyone, not just the clergy?

We are certainly to be servants to each other, but only in the way that the Church tells us is appropriate. To do otherwise is to claim to know the teachings of Christ better than the Church Herself. That would be the height of arrogance, which is hardly Christlike.

To make such claims is really at the heart of Protestantism, so yes, doing what that particular priest did is NOT a Catholic act.

 

[Anna_Claire]

You Are wrong Brendan. I am Catholic. I love the church. I am not arrogant. I would say you don’t understand.

 

[Lapey]

You Are wrong Brendan. I am Catholic. I love the church. I am not arrogant. I would say you don’t understand.

You say you love the Church, but you don’t love Her Traditions. You agree with those who would have them be different, made to “fit” one’s opinion of how things should be. Is it possible, just possible, you may be lacking in understanding?

We won’t agree on this issue, as well as others.

Can we get back to teh OP? Non-Catholic, yes or no?

 

[JRRTFAN]

NOT CATHOLIC??? So you dont believe Catholics believe this passage…?
"‘When he had washed their feet and put on his outer garments again, he went back to the table. “Do you understand,” he said, “what I have done to you? You call me Master and Lord, and rightly, so I am. If I then have washed your feet, you must wash each other’s feet. I have given you an example so that you may copy what I have done to you. In all truth I tell you, no servant is greater than his master, no messenger is greater than the one who sent him.”’ (Jn. 13.12-16) …

Jesus did not command that only Catholic clergy should wash the feet of only Catholic men. That is not what he meant.

That’s true. However, Jesus left his Church with the authority to design and implement rites and worship methods. The rite of foot washing calls for the priest (who is in persona Christi) to wash the feet of 12 men. Not for every Tom, Dick and Mary in the building to set up foot wahing stations so that everybody in attendence can get a foot washing. It’s supposed to be reminiscent of the last supper, not a Japanese foot bath.

The new age whack speak that has taken over the Church is inappropriate and dilutes the meaning of everything meaningful.

 

[Brendan]

You Are wrong Brendan. I am Catholic. I love the church. I am not arrogant. I would say you don’t understand.

Do not understand what? That the Church has condemnded certain practices related to a false understanding of Scripture, and that certain priests and laity have continued to participate in these practices, in effect, claiming that they know more about Christ and Scripture than Holy Mother Church?

I understand that that reeks of Protestantism and arrogance.

You love the Church, but seem to have little desire to obey Her. Instead you will do things that the Church says is wrong. How exactly is that loving the Church?