Can a "normal Joe" interpret Bible passages/scripture?

[Nicene]

You misunderstood my point. I could have gone to a number of biblical commentaries owning and having access to many. I was looking for an offical RCC ruling.
Your provided commentary does well but is it be anymore authoritative than Jamison, Fausset and Brown?

You mean like Summa Theologiae 1-2, q 102, a. 4 ad 1?

You seem to be under the mistaken impression that we are not allowed to breathe unless the magisterium says so. In fact you are quite wrong.

Does the church need to make a ruling that says God is everywhere?

But if you are talking about the eucharist, is it your contention that christs body and blood is dwelling in you or in a blade of grass or a tree? Or is Paul saying that God in Spirit inhabits every human being making man His temple through His indwelling?

We are talking about two very different things here aren’t we. Paul certianly knows that Christ is truly in the bread and wine that is consecrated, that is obvious in Corinthians. No mere symbol casts judgement by not discerning Christ in it.

Peace and God Bless
Nicene

 

[mercygate]

Doreen:

Okay, but couldn’t the “presbyters” mean anyone who has the ministry of the Holy Spirit? Couldn’t it mean you or I after we’ve been adopted as Sons? and annointed by the Spirit?

How do you derive that from the evidence of Scripture? Paul cautions Timothy not to lay hands on anyone precipitously – in other words, laying on of hands by the authorized person is how presbyters are set apart.

I can see elders of the faith ministering on behalf of those who are still under some bondage…this makes perfect sense to me. That we’d pray over our hurting members.

Hmm. Not sure I know what you mean by “members under bondage.” The NT Churches were made of baptized people. So they would not be considered to be under bondage.

So it’s becoming apparent that only in the Catholic doctrine, is the Catholic priest elevated. Would that be a fair assumption? I am not saying I don’t agree with it here…I am trying to get to the root of the system that currently endows Catholic priests with authority above others.

Elevated? In what way elevated? The presbyterate is a ministry of servant-leadership.

Any “elevation” is the elevation of serving the cross. Yes, our priests are well educated and are selected for certain spiritual and leadership traits, so they are “elevated” but it is their service of the Cross that “elevates” them.

Only in Catholic doctrine? The dignity of priesthood is conferred by Christ himself because it is his priesthood in which our priests participate on our behalf. To that extent the priestly ministry is not “Catholic” but *essentially *Christian in the fullest sense of the word.

 

[Nicene]

Jesus was against religiousity. The scribes and pharasees missed their Messiah because they knew not God but a religious system.

So when Jesus said that in Matthew he was wrong, interesting.

With all due respect you made that up. This is the new covenant:

I couldnt make this up read Jer 31:33 and Heb 10:16.

You forgot the next few verses:

Jer31:34: And no longer shall each man teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, `Know the LORD,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, says the LORD; for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."

Heb10:19: Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter the sanctuary by the blood of Jesus, 20: by the new and living way which he opened for us through the curtain, that is, through his flesh,

Christ gave it to the apostles, which we can see in Acts is conferred, not “I accept Jesus and read sacred scripture so I have the Holy Spirit.” Even Simon Magus heard, believed, and was baptized:verse 13. But he definately did not have the Holy Spirit, in fact he wanted the ability to lay on hands and confer it himself by buying it.

*13: Even Simon himself believed, and after being baptized he continued with Philip. And seeing signs and great miracles performed, he was amazed.
14: Now when the apostles at Jerusalem heard that Sama’ria had received the word of God, they sent to them Peter and John,
15: who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit;
16: for it had not yet fallen on any of them, but they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
17: Then they laid their hands on them and they received the Holy Spirit.
18: Now when Simon saw that the Spirit was given through the laying on of the apostles’ hands, he offered them money,
19: saying, “Give me also this power, that any one on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit.” *

If Jesus is against religious order, why does he give the apostles power to confer the Holy Spirit, the Power to bind and loose, the Power to fogive sin? The Power to ordain other by laying on hands? Why do they set up churches with Presbyters, Deacons, Bishops which persist to this day?

Is it your contention that they really didn’t recieve that power from Christ?

Peace and God Bless
Nicene

 

[MrS]

Doreen:

Does your tone in your reply to me count as grace? Because if this, to you, is grace, you truly don’t have a comprehension of the term.

Your responses are harsh and critical, and I don’t think that is conducive to instruction.

If there were truth to what you were saying, and I am willing to consider that there might be (I would not bother discussing it if I didn’t think there may be something to learn.) …You surely do not represent the kind of Christian that I would aspire to join with.

I’m sorry, friend, but you are doing no honor to Christ when you use such methods to make your point. It’s only evidence that you lack a Christ-like nature.

We simply cannot add to GRACE. How is the “Sacrifice of going to Mass” not adding to Christ’s ultimate sacrifice? He paid the price once and for all. How can we continue to pay in sacrifices?

I choose to forgive you for your tone and attitude, and I choose to pray you’ll find your gentle nature more effective in such discussions as this. And I thank my God for His wisdom in giving us free will…so that our choices can bring us closer to Him.

God Bless You With His Mighty Spirit and The Fruits Therein!
D.

Occasionally I sense that we/I need to shake the bushes, so to speak, to really prompt earnest discussion.

The tone I used in response to your post was very intentional. And “judging” from your response, I was a bit successful.

So now that I feel you will be actually reading posts (long and short), I am more inclined to continue to comment. Too often we get posters here who love to submit volume… and little real substance. We need to take small bites, …

To address your comment on Christ paid the price once and for all…

This is again common protestant teaching/misunderstanding. And the Catholic should understand :

Christ redeemed the world.
His sacrifice re-opened the gates of Heaven.
Only Christ could approach the Father for forgiveness for us.

However,

We still have a hugh price to pay. Christ will not spend eternity in hell for the murderer or the fornicatior…
He did NOT pay that price.
The temporal punishment due for sin is due from us.

As an aside: There is a line in Narnia “Should we tell Edward what Aslan did for him?” …“No, not now… he would be so sad to know how much Aslan did just for him”

As Lent approaches, Catholics have a chance to re-remember what Christ did for us… each of us. We also have the opportunity to re-commit our lives to Him and try to pay the temporal “punishment” for our sins (Afterall, nothing unclean will enter heaven).

Jesus has not past and no future.
He is eternally present.
So too is His love and sacrifice for us (re: Revelations telling us of the on-going sacrifice of the lamb. This is possible because it is outside of time)
At Mass we are so privileged to be taught again, and again, and again of His love for us when the Ministerial Priest re-presents that Eternal Divine.

thanks for listening

 

[MrS]

mercygate:

How do you derive that from the evidence of Scripture? Paul cautions Timothy not to lay hands on anyone precipitously – in other words, laying on of hands by the authorized person is how presbyters are set apart.

Hmm. Not sure I know what you mean by “members under bondage.” The NT Churches were made of baptized people. So they would not be considered to be under bondage.

Elevated? In what way elevated? The presbyterate is a ministry of servant-leadership.

Any “elevation” is the elevation of serving the cross. Yes, our priests are well educated and are selected for certain spiritual and leadership traits, so they are “elevated” but it is their service of the Cross that “elevates” them.

Only in Catholic doctrine? The dignity of priesthood is conferred by Christ himself because it is his priesthood in which our priests participate on our behalf. To that extent the priestly ministry is not “Catholic” but *essentially *Christian in the fullest sense of the word.

You have had some good posts… and this is one of them, perhaps among the best. Thanks

 

[Doreen]

Philthy:

Hi Doreen! :yup:

Phil,
I thank you for your respectful and delightful method of discussing these things. I got SO much out of what you presented, and you keep me thinking…and questioning. I appreciate your way of keeping the discussion dignified and fruitful.

I’m going to have my work cut out, trying to respond to all you say in just 500 words!

I failed to do it —6,400+ words, fo I’ll submit this as two posts in order to not cut and leave something out.

John 4:34 “My food, is to do the will of him who sent me and to finish his work.”

Is this symbolic? Or literal?

You haven’t explained how those two sentences change the interpretation of the passages in John 6! How do you think “The Spirit gives life…” affects the statements Christ made about eating and drinking his flesh? You left it open as if the answer was obvious, but I’m not sure what you’re thinking

. If I had to guess I would say you favor a SYMBOLIC interpretation based on His use of the word SPIRIT? Am I correct?

As I look at all the references to the bread…

Jesus says: “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent” vs. 29

Hence: God’s Work = Belief

Verse 33 “For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”

Hence: God’s Bread = Christ

35…“I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty.”

Hence: The Bread of Life/Christ + our seeking him + our belief = satisfaction

40 “For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.”

Hence: God’s will = we look to the Son and believe and live

50 “But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which a man may eat and not die.
51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread he will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”

HERE IS (the bread) = I AM (the living bread)

This bread = flesh that will be given up
Eat this bread = Life

56 “Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him.”

Eat = remaining in me and I in him
Eat = Abiding

57 “Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.”
58 " …he who feeds on this bread will live forever."

Feeds on = continual abiding

Which brings us back to an important preceding statement:

John 4:34 “My food, is to do the will of him who sent me and to finish his work.”

SEE NEXT POST FOR MORE…
d

 

[Doreen]

In addition, bread does not fully satisfy (“Man cannot live by bread alone”) and to liken Christ’s satisfaction to that of bread is truly the understatement of all time, no?

You are right! My bad. Just a poor way of putting it. What I meant is that “abiding” in Christ is what will bring full satisfaction.

Also, we cannot ignore the teachings of the earliest Christians on such an important topic.

Agreed. Seems there might be a question as to what early texts are trustworthy.

color=navy]I think it is pretty obvious that much of Scripture can be understood by all who read it. I have no problem with that.

I agree that there’s danger in trying to ascertain pieces without reading the message in its entirity (sp?) And I know from my experience, until I was fully submitted to the Authority of Christ, I had serioius trouble comprehending it. The Spirit that convicted me of my sin also gave me the grace to understand more. That may sound odd, but it’s just how I feel I experienced some discernment.

But it also becomes obvious that much of it is also vague and confusing and that unless we are prepared to toss out just about all of the bible for “Love God and love one another” then we have to admit that it seems that something else is needed to truly unify and define what it means to be Christian both in spirit and in Truth.

My previous point speaks to my understanding of this.

I think if you give this proposal a little thought you will see that not only is it impossibly arbitrary, but you have ignored an additional(and the most important) option: looking to those who have asked the Spirit into their hearts AND have “eaten the flesh”.
Good point, however, I see these acts as one and the same (see equation above).

And I think what many Catholics will try to convey is that the Church is presenting the FULL Truth - not just partial Truth.

Will you be shocked when I confess that I left the Catholic church because I felt just the opposite? I felt that it was missing out on the greatest truth of all. The truth of Grace. The truth that we all sin and that we cannot overcome sin without a simple trust in Christ as our Savior. I feel cheated because I was never told that all this confessing was only useful if I could come to give up my will and ask God to replace it with His own. I do not once recall ever being told that the Holy Spirit of God could indwell in me and that I might become a new creation in Christ.

Maybe it’s my fault for not understanding, but in the evangelical church, this message came across to me loud and clear, and it was NEWS to me!

If it’s being explained at the infant baptism, then I have to tell you, those babes aren’t getting the message and they end up living through hell on earth before they go through drastic measures to come to find God’s truth.

All that Truth that you possess is beautiful and none of it should be abandoned - it should be brought to completion.

Thank you. I feel it is a beautiful thing to feel the love of God personally. I am amazed by His grace. I pray you, too, know it.

Please understand that I personally dont see myself as any better as a Christian than you, and I certainly do not judge you. I know full well how pitiful my Christian life would look if held up to any of the Saints as well as the many Protestant faithful.

Ditto! I humbly stand before this awesome God and desire the fullness of the truth. It’s the air I breathe.

Thank you for hashing this out with such grace. God bless you.
D.

 

[VociMike]

SolaChristo:

Excellent, Excellent, Excellent questions.

So how come you didn’t answer them? I’ll repeat them here:

Yes, I realize it perfectly. And I have pointed out that God is everywhere, and that would include temples built by human hands. So what is your point in quoting this scripture? What do you think the phrase means, when it is so clearly false in the literal sense? If God is not in the tabernacles of Catholic Churches then He is not omnipresent. Do you claim that God is not omnipresent?

 

[Doreen]

We still have a hugh price to pay. Christ will not spend eternity in hell for the murderer or the fornicatior…
He did NOT pay that price.
The temporal punishment due for sin is due from us.

Where does this teaching come from? I don’t see this stuff of “temporal punishment” anywhere in the Bible. I would be willing to consider it necessary to the faith walk, if I knew it were coming from somewhere other than man’s idea that we have to punish ourselves for God’s forgiveness.

Grace is grace…not something to be earned. SO that being true, it’s hard to accept any other acts of penance that might be extolled as necessary to salvation/faith.

In fact, it speaks against everything Paul tried to encourage the early churches to avoid. That is, adding anything to grace.

Because our dependence on Him and Him alone is thwarted.

I’m not against “remembering” the sacrifice that was paid. But that comes from true repentance and a continued devotion to the Lord. The Spirit should always be present, convicting us toward righteousness. And therefore, we need not continually crucify Him, and we are able to be “FREE” of punishment — temporal or otherwise.

Consider this…isn’t it possible that thinking we have to pay in any way leaves the door wide open for the devil to continually charge us and make us loathe ourselves, therefore discouraging us, and keeping us from true freedom in Christ? Our sins would always have power over us in this case.

This is what I see as the danger.

On the other hand, if we know, believe, and stand on the fact that He paid the price ONCE and FOR ALL time, we truly can be free of that sin…it has no power to convict us and tear our Spirit down again.

As Lent approaches, Catholics have a chance to re-remember what Christ did for us… each of us. We also have the opportunity to re-commit our lives to Him and try to pay the temporal “punishment” for our sins (Afterall, nothing unclean will enter heaven).

A noble thing, if it is just a “remembrance” … but consider this: should we not be fasting and repenting ANYTIME we are turning away? Anytime we have slipped and fallen to temptation, should we not immediately fast, repent, and re-commit ourselves to Him?

My Catholic friends figure they can have Mardi Gras all year round as long as they try to tone it down for these 40 days. See how the devil can take what was meant as a good ritual/remembrance and turn it against man?

Jesus has not past and no future.
He is eternally present.
So too is His love and sacrifice for us (re: Revelations telling us of the on-going sacrifice of the lamb. This is possible because it is outside of time)

I so totally agree with this…which is why we, as His followers, should ALWAYS be in obedience to Him, searching His Word, seeking His precepts, fellowshiping with one another, encouraging and spurring one another on. Not just on Sunday, in Lent, at Christmas, but 24:7.

See…if we have only to be reverant of the Word and of God at certain times of the day/week/year…then it means, to many, that it doesn’t matter what we do the rest of the year. That’s the leaky vessel that I grew up in…and I sadly, fell through the cracks.

So it is my hope, with these inquiries and discussions, to find my fault. Thank you for assisting me in this quest.

At Mass we are so privileged to be taught again, and again, and again of His love for us when the Ministerial Priest re-presents that Eternal Divine.

What do you mean by “Eternal Divine” (is this a description of God/Christ?) I am just unfamiliar with the term.

I have no problem with Mass being an opportunity to stop and wonder at the Great I Am. And I pray that many are fed in their Spirits by such a weekly or even daily invitation.

Again, to explain why I felt unfulfilled in the Church: (and NOT as an attack against it) I came to feel that Mass was a duty (not a privilege) and there came little real meaning in it for me personally. I could apply so little of what I heard there to real life. I had one priest in college who did a beautiful job of applying Scripture to the College Student Life. He, unfortunately, was taken away prematurely to a treatment center for addicted priests.

Now my lack of understanding can be attributed to ME and not to the Church. But the problem is that it isn’t just me. It’s every Catholic I know…that has no trouble getting drunk, swearing, accepting sexual perversions/adultery/promiscuity, greed, materialism, gambling (Bingo is gambling?!).
Sadly, the Church is failing its people. I want my Catholic friends and family to not be failed/lost/left behind.

thanks for listening

Thanks for sharing information in a non-threatening, and loving way. It’s not animosity I seek, but truly an understanding.

In His Grip!
D.

 

[SolaChristo]

Nicene:

So when Jesus said that in Matthew he was wrong, interesting.

No Jesus is not wrong I questioned your interprtetation.
.

You forgot the next few verses:

Jer31:34: And no longer shall each man teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, `Know the LORD,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, says the LORD; for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."

Heb10:19: Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter the sanctuary by the blood of Jesus, 20: by the new and living way which he opened for us through the curtain, that is, through his flesh,

Absolutely if anything they strengthen my position.

Christ gave it to the apostles, which we can see in Acts is conferred, not “I accept Jesus and read sacred scripture so I have the Holy Spirit.” Even Simon Magus heard, believed, and was baptized:verse 13. But he definately did not have the Holy Spirit, in fact he wanted the ability to lay on hands and confer it himself by buying it. Christ sent the Paraclete to the church to lead them into all truth. Eliminating the church He set up and saying he meant me personally doesn’t hold up biblically.

*13: Even Simon himself believed, and after being baptized he continued with Philip. And seeing signs and great miracles performed, he was amazed.
14: Now when the apostles at Jerusalem heard that Sama’ria had received the word of God, they sent to them Peter and John,
15: who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit;
16: for it had not yet fallen on any of them, but they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
17: Then they laid their hands on them and they received the Holy Spirit.
18: Now when Simon saw that the Spirit was given through the laying on of the apostles’ hands, he offered them money,
19: saying, “Give me also this power, that any one on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit.” *

I recieved the Holy Spirit at baptism washing away my sin, then had Him conferred upon me again when I was confirmed. Are you saying He wasn’t real?

Christ said he would be with them always, even to the end of time. Can people recieve the Holy Spirit otherwise? Yep, Peter when he goes to the gentiles and is shown the vision, but it is the only time it happenes, the non normative mode to show Peter what to do and convince him of the worthyness of his vision from God.

The Holy Spirit is greater than the apostles. If you say that recieving the Holy Spirit is the non normative mode then you do not believe what Jesus says is true. For even John the baptist told that Jesus would baptise with water and with fire.

Peace and God Bless
Nicene

 

[SolaChristo]

Nicene:

You mean like Summa Theologiae 1-2, q 102, a. 4 ad 1?

You seem to be under the mistaken impression that we are not allowed to breathe unless the magisterium says so. In fact you are quite wrong.

Does the church need to make a ruling that says God is everywhere?

But if you are talking about the eucharist, is it your contention that christs body and blood is dwelling in you or in a blade of grass or a tree? Or is Paul saying that God in Spirit inhabits every human being making man His temple through His indwelling?

We are talking about two very different things here aren’t we. Paul certianly knows that Christ is truly in the bread and wine that is consecrated, that is obvious in Corinthians. No mere symbol casts judgement by not discerning Christ in it.

Peace and God Bless
Nicene

Your words not mine.
The topic is can an average Joe interpret the bible.

 

[SolaChristo]

VociMike:

So how come you didn’t answer them? I’ll repeat them here:

Yes, I realize it perfectly. And I have pointed out that God is everywhere, and that would include temples built by human hands. So what is your point in quoting this scripture? What do you think the phrase means, when it is so clearly false in the literal sense? If God is not in the tabernacles of Catholic Churches then He is not omnipresent. Do you claim that God is not omnipresent?

You missed my point entirely or so it would seem

How does an average Joe make an understanding of what this verse means?

 

[VociMike]

SolaChristo:

You missed my point entirely or so it would seem

Well, maybe you didn’t make your point clearly.

How does an average Joe make an understanding of what this verse means?

I don’t find your question particularly interesting or useful. What is really important, understanding individual verses or understanding the entire deposit of faith? Your focus on individual verses is a case of tunnel vision.

Does your understanding of this individual verse stand alone, and teach you something about the deposit of faith that is not taught anywhere else? Do you consider a perfect understanding of this verse essential to your faith?

 

[SolaChristo]

VociMike:

Well, maybe you didn’t make your point clearly.

I don’t find your question particularly interesting or useful. What is really important, understanding individual verses or understanding the entire deposit of faith? Your focus on individual verses is a case of tunnel vision.

Does your understanding of this individual verse stand alone, and teach you something about the deposit of faith that is not taught anywhere else? Do you consider a perfect understanding of this verse essential to your faith?

Scripture does not particularily interest you?
Rules for biblical interpretation do not particulaily interest you?
How God can speak to an average Joe through scripture does not particularily interst you?
Because that is what we are discussing. Can God and how God speaks to an average Joe through scripture.

 

[mercygate]

SolaChristo:

Your words not mine.
The topic is can an average Joe interpret the bible.

Since there are only a handful of passages in the Bible which have been authoritatively interpreted by the Church (it’s only around a dozen – possibly fewer), the Catholic “normal Joe” reads Scripture for all it’s worth, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit and in the light of the rest of the word of God, namely Tradition and the Magisterium.

Considering that the promises Christ gave that he and the Holy Spirit will be our guide were given only in the presence of the 11, this “normal Joe” understands that we, as far-flung individual readers of Scripture, scattered all over the planet and across two thousand years, could not possibly fulfill Jesus’ prayer to the Father “that they might all be one” unless we read Scripture in the full context out of which it arose: The Church Jesus promised to build upon the foundation of the Apostles.

“Me and Jesus” is not a Church. Me and Jesus is an ego trip and a recipe for chaos and heresy.

 

[VociMike]

SolaChristo:

Scripture does not particularily interest you?
Rules for biblical interpretation do not particulaily interest you?
How God can speak to an average Joe through scripture does not particularily interst you?
Because that is what we are discussing. Can God and how God speaks to an average Joe through scripture.

So now you have chosen to resort to cheap debating tricks by putting foolish words into your opponent’s mouth. I’m not impressed. But I will anwer (in my own acual words, not your silly words imputed to me) your last question. God speaks to the average Joe through scripture when the average Joe reads scripture in the light of Church teaching. Any other approach is a guarantee of error and heresy, such as has existed in Protestantism from it’s birth.

Tell me again how vital the verse in question is to your understanding of faith. You’ve spent an awful lot of time on this one verse, and you’ve done so, at least initially, to make a point against Catholic teaching. The one thing that you have conspicuously not done is offer your own infallible understanding of it.

 

[MrS]

Doreen:

** {1}** Where does this teaching come from? I don’t see this stuff of “temporal punishment” anywhere in the Bible.
, it’s hard to accept any other acts of penance that might be extolled as necessary to salvation/faith.

In fact, it speaks against everything Paul tried to encourage the early churches to avoid. That is, adding anything to grace.

I’m not against “remembering” the **{2} **sacrifice that was paid. But that comes from true repentance and a continued devotion to the Lord. The Spirit should always be present, convicting us toward righteousness. {3} And therefore, we need not continually crucify Him, and we are able to be “FREE” of punishment — temporal or otherwise.

{4} Consider this…isn’t it possible that thinking we have to pay in any way leaves the door wide open for the devil to continually charge us and make us loathe ourselves,

{5} should we not be fasting and repenting ANYTIME we are turning away? Anytime we have slipped and fallen to temptation, should we not immediately fast, repent, and re-commit ourselves to Him?

{6} My Catholic friends figure they can have Mardi Gras all year

**{7} ** That’s the leaky vessel that I grew up in…and I sadly, fell through the cracks.

**{8} ** What do you mean by “Eternal Divine” (is this a description of God/Christ?) I am just unfamiliar with the term.

{9} Again, to explain why I felt unfulfilled in the Church: (and NOT as an attack against it) I came to feel that Mass was a duty (not a privilege) and there came little real meaning in it for me personally.

{10} I could apply so little of what I heard there to real life. I
Now my lack of understanding can be attributed to ME and not to the Church.
Sadly, the Church is failing its people. I want my Catholic friends and family to not be failed/lost/left behind.

In His Grip!
D.

**{1} ** When Paul talks of faith in Romans, he opens and closes this discourse with “…the obedience of faith…” This would be something important to study.
He often uses the word “alone”… he knows what it means. And he often uses the word “faith”… again, he know how to explain Jesus. Yet he NEVER uses them together. Hhhmmmm.
Temporal punishment is simply not eternal punishment. It is our price to pay. “…pick up your cross and follow me…” not “I will do all the work… just follow…”
Again, the “price” Jesus paid is not our permission to sin. He redeemed us and reopened the gates of heaven.
Jesus required the rich man to give it all to the poor…his price to pay. And Scripture is full of instructions that we will be tested, fire will burn away the impurities… and I feel you would admit that if you died this instance you would not consider (judge) yourself worthy of entering Heaven. So how can you become “perfect”? Grace helps you…it does not make you perfect… and many even reject God’s grace.

{2} a study of the meaning of “…do” in “do this in memory…” will show that of the 8 times it is used in scripture, it means “sacrifice”. Thus the understanding becomes “… sacrifice in memory of Me…”

{3} You know better than that… you were never at the Catholic Mass that “crucified” the Lord. You know it is an unbloody “sacrifice” And you know that the Lord said " this IS…" And you know that St Paul admonished those who received The Body and Blood in an unworthy manner. It was and is not symbolic.

{4} The devil is alive and active. And his actions are all evil. It is God’s grace that helps us combat him. But we still fail at times. And we still must “pay” for those failures of choosing evil over good.

{5} Yep, and it is called penance. And it requires a level of punishment. And those sins can be forgiven best by doing it Christ’s way… read of the power given to the Apostles on Easter Sunday night.

**{6} ** They are wrong…as are my Baptist friends who party Mon, Tue, Thur, Fri and Sat.

**{7} ** Nothing has changed. The Catholic Church is perfect… but the people in it are among the worst of sinners. Same as in the early Church… which is why we have the Epistles to show and correct us.

****cont

 

[MrS]

{8} Yes, it describes the nature of the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus

**{9} **It is a duty… keep holy the Lord’s Day… what better way than to recognize what He did for us?

**{10} **Don’t be sad… it is God’s plan that you are where you are. No one is “left” behind. They choose. And they “credit” their conscience as their guide. They have no idea how different a conscience, and a well-formed conscience are.

Sounds like your work is cut out for you… you may even find yourself being very “blunt” sometimes. But consider that it is God’s plan… and that plan includes the Church and Her sacraments… with the Eucharist being the source and summit of the Faith. Non-catholics don’t have it all. Too many Catholics don’t know they do

 

[mercygate]

MrS:

Non-catholics don’t have it all. Too many Catholics don’t know they do

Get ready, Church! The Holy Spirit is roaring through Doreen’s heart with a holy fire!

I’m already feeling the heat!

 

[MrS]

mercygate:

Get ready, Church! The Holy Spirit is roaring through Doreen’s heart with a holy fire!

I’m already feeling the heat!

With her years of experience, she has the makings of a Wonderful Catholic. Some of the best defenders of faith come from walks outside the Church first.