Can a pastor be atheist in the United Church of Canada? Blog link

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josephback said:
This is what happens when you hold dogma to the standard of human subjectivity. The church and truth are considered to be possessions of man, rather than God.

patheos.com/blogs/geneveith/2016/04/the-case-of-the-atheist-pastor/?ref_widget=related&ref_blog=geneveith&ref_post=the-lutheran-doctrine-of-culture
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Most of us posting on these boards live in a country where you can become a Minister /Pastor by answering an ad from the back of a Rolling Stone magazine. (or by jumping through some other hoops)

I thank God for the freedom I have in my country.
But, like any freedom or liberty, it can be abused.

Or do you want the “State” to only give their religious “stamp of approval” to the selected few?
 
alwayswill said:
Most of us posting on these boards live in a country where you can become a Minister /Pastor by answering an ad from the back of a Rolling Stone magazine. (or by jumping through some other hoops)

I thank God for the freedom I have in my country.
But, like any freedom or liberty, it can be abused.

Or do you want the “State” to only give their religious “stamp of approval” to the selected few?
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I think his point is that truth is rendered meaningless in this day and age.
 
To hold true to doctrine and dogma, one would need integrity; Protestantism has no such integrity for it lacks a basis, a rock if you will nor will it ever, but I only appreciate the beauty and truth found within the Catholic Church even more when seeing the articles of this nature and the danger of one’s subjective opinion in regards to Scripture and God.
 
josie_L said:
I think his point is that truth is rendered meaningless in this day and age.
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In the article she says she is a product of said church which taught here to critique the Bible, including God by implication. It’s kind of sad when someone that openly professes not the believe in God can lead a church congregation.
 
alwayswill said:
Most of us posting on these boards live in a country where you can become a Minister /Pastor by answering an ad from the back of a Rolling Stone magazine. (or by jumping through some other hoops)

I thank God for the freedom I have in my country.
But, like any freedom or liberty, it can be abused.

Or do you want the “State” to only give their religious “stamp of approval” to the selected few?
Click to expand...
I trust the State’s hands in religion less than I trust subjective human reason and given the disconnect between politics and the moral law these days I am very glad the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution keeps the state out. Unfortunately it also gives a lot of power to those who would abuse others in the name of God. See the documentary “Join Us” by Ondi Timoner.
 
Austere said:
To hold true to doctrine and dogma, one would need integrity; Protestantism has no such integrity for it lacks a basis, a rock if you will nor will it ever, but I only appreciate the beauty and truth found within the Catholic Church even more when seeing the articles of this nature and the danger of one’s subjective opinion in regards to Scripture and God.
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Pease note: not every non- Catholic, self- proclaimed " Christian" is a Protestant

Protestant >oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/protestant
A member or follower of any of the Western Christian churches that are separate from the Roman Catholic Church** and follow the principles of the Reformation**, including the Baptist, Presbyterian, and Lutheran churches.

In case you don’t know: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_solae

The principles are:
The 5 solas (occasionally, solae) of the Protestant Reformation are a foundational set of Biblical principles held by theologians and churchmen to be central to the doctrine of salvation as taught by the Western

“Sola Scriptura” (Scripture Alone); “Sola Gratia” (Grace Alone); “Sola Fide” (Faith Alone); “Solus Christus” (Christ Alone); and “Soli Deo Gloria” (To God Alone Be Glory).

I am not following your reasoning
How is a Scripture denying , God denying " pastor" a Protestant?

What **principles **of the Protestant Reformation allows for atheist pastors?
 
alwayswill said:
Pease note: not every non- Catholic, self- proclaimed " Christian" is a Protestant

Protestant >oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/protestant
A member or follower of any of the Western Christian churches that are separate from the Roman Catholic Church** and follow the principles** of the Reformation, including the Baptist, Presbyterian, and Lutheran churches.

In case you don’t know: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_solae

The principles are:
The 5 solas (occasionally, solae) of the Protestant Reformation are a foundational set of Biblical principles held by theologians and churchmen to be central to the doctrine of salvation as taught by the Western

“Sola Scriptura” (Scripture Alone); “Sola Gratia” (Grace Alone); “Sola Fide” (Faith Alone); “Solus Christus” (Christ Alone); and “Soli Deo Gloria” (To God Alone Be Glory).

I am not following your reasoning
How is a Scripture denying , God denying " pastor" a Protestant?

What **principles **of the Protestant Reformation allows for atheist pastors?
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Sola Scriptura is biblical? I’d be very interested to see where in Scripture it states that. Nonetheless, what would you refer to this church in which the atheist pastor is participating in?
 
Also, nowhere in my original post did I refer to this person as a Protestant; I was talking about Protestantism as a whole, allowing such foolishness as to letting an unbeliever lead a congregation. There’s no doubt in my mind that the church to which this person belongs is a Protestant church but I’m not exactly going to be expecting orthodoxy in such a church which engages in a ‘big tent’ approach.
 
josephback said:
I trust the State’s hands in religion less than I trust subjective human reason and given the disconnect between politics and the moral law these days I am very glad the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution keeps the state out. Unfortunately it also gives a lot of power to those who would abuse others in the name of God…
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The US government DOES have guidelines for what constitutes a religion or faith community, if only to define tax exemption. As for individuals who seek religious freedom to practice in a certain way, the government can decide yes or no on that too. Do you remember the cases involving native traditions and the use of certain drugs?
 
Austere said:
To hold true to doctrine and dogma, one would need integrity; Protestantism has no such integrity for it lacks a basis, a rock if you will nor will it ever, but I only appreciate the beauty and truth found within the Catholic Church even more when seeing the articles of this nature and the danger of one’s subjective opinion in regards to Scripture and God.
Click to expand...
Protestantism has no integrity? That is a rather sweeping and harsh statement, don’t you think? I’m sure you meant something different.
 
Austere said:
Also, nowhere in my original post did I refer to this person as a Protestant; I was talking about Protestantism as a whole, allowing such foolishness as to letting an unbeliever lead a congregation. There’s no doubt in my mind that the church to which this person belongs is a Protestant church but I’m not exactly going to be expecting orthodoxy in such a church which engages in a ‘big tent’ approach.
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“There’s no doubt in my mind that the church to which this person belongs is a Protestant”

Then you need discernment.

I am still not following your reasoning:
How is a Scripture denying , God denying " pastor" a Protestant?

What principles of the Protestant Reformation allows for atheist pastors?
 
alwayswill said:
the Atheist Church
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The Atheist Church you say? So, if one day, amongst the congregation at a Protestant church, a young Protestant comes beginning to doubt (a natural phase in all people’s lives) and that he may be leaning to slight agnosticism, does this church become the Church Between Two Minds? 😃
 
Austere said:
The Atheist Church you say? So, if one day, amongst the congregation at a Protestant church, a young Protestant comes beginning to doubt (a natural phase in all people’s lives) and that he may be leaning to slight agnosticism, does this church become the Church Between Two Minds? 😃
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when the church appoints (or accepts) an atheist to lead them … then yes, they are an atheist church
 
ComplineSanFran said:
Do you remember the cases involving native traditions and the use of certain drugs?
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In fact I do. The persons in question came to work high due to their religion requiring the use of peyote. I believe SCOTUS upheld their right to smoke.
 
alwayswill said:
What **principles **of the Protestant Reformation allows for atheist pastors?
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I don’t mean to but in to your argument, but one thing that increases confusion is the lack of a central authority in Protestantism. When things like this happen, the more democratic church structure of Reformation Christianity means that there is little to hold error in check. The primacy of the individual and their personal relationship to God sans hierarchy plus the downplaying of Tradition means that one who is charismatic enough can gather followers and go off to found their own congregation with little accountability to a larger church structure. I don’t agree with the broad brush insults of the other poster but this is a weak spot of Protestantism.
 
alwayswill said:
when the church appoints (or accepts) an atheist to lead them … then yes, they are an atheist church
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But this church, part of the United Church of Canada, didn’t appoint an atheist to be their pastor. They appoint a UCC minister who gradually changed the language and worship away from Biblical texts and references to God. Unitarians worship this way all the time.

The controversy, in my understanding, is whether to let the congregation continue to develop in this way, or to remove her for not complying with church teachings. There are advocates on both sides.

Whether one agrees or not, there are many people and even clergy who are moving in this direction in their belief system. They still want to come together as a community. They would probably still call it worship. The question is - is there room for them within mainstream religious structures like the UCC?
 
josephback said:
I don’t mean to but in to your argument, but one thing that increases confusion is the lack of a central authority in Protestantism. When things like this happen, the more democratic church structure of Reformation Christianity means that there is little to hold error in check. The primacy of the individual and their personal relationship to God sans hierarchy plus the downplaying of Tradition means that one who is charismatic enough can gather followers and go off to found their own congregation with little accountability to a larger church structure. I don’t agree with the broad brush insults of the other poster but this is a weak spot of Protestantism.
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“When things like this happen,”
Like a pastor denying the existence of God

Then they cease to be Reformation Christians

in the same way:
This is a list of organizations which consider themselves part of the Roman Catholic Church or as reformed versions of the Roman Catholic Church, but which the Vatican does not consider to be in full communion with itself.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Catholic_organizations_not_in_communion_with_the_Roman_Catholic_Church
Code: 
Chinese Patriotic Catholic Association, the national church of the People's Republic of China
Philippine Independent Church, also called the Aglipayan Church, a national church in the Philippines
Polish National Catholic Church, a Polish national church in the United States and Canada
American Catholic Church in the United States
Brazilian Catholic Apostolic Church
Eucharistic Catholic Church
Free Catholic Church in Germany
Reformed Catholic Church
True Catholic Church
Society of Saint Pius X
Catholics for Choice
Community of the Lady of All Nations (Army of Mary)
Married Priests Now!
Movement for the Restoration of the Ten Commandments of God
Reformed Society of Jesus, an organization within the Reformed Catholic Church
Roman Catholic Womenpriests
Catholic Action Network
 
ComplineSanFran said:
But this church, part of the United Church of Canada, didn’t appoint an atheist to be their pastor. They appoint a UCC minister who gradually changed the language and worship away from Biblical texts and references to God. Unitarians worship this way all the time.

The controversy, in my understanding, is whether to let the congregation continue to develop in this way, or to remove her for not complying with church teachings. There are advocates on both sides.

Whether one agrees or not, there are many people and even clergy who are moving in this direction in their belief system. They still want to come together as a community. They would probably still call it worship. The question is - is there room for them within mainstream religious structures like the UCC?
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legally? yes
Theologically or spiritually ? no

there is no room for them within mainstream CHRISTIAN religious structures for leadership denying God.
 
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