Can a person get to heaven without "swimming the Tiber"?

[Grace_Seeker]

I’ve been invited more than once on this board to “swim the Tiber”. I appreciate what I have decided to receive as loving invitations by my Catholic brothers to join them in their Christian journey, rather than condemning accusations that I am on the wrong road. But I do hear in some other comments a sense of condemnation that if I am not in full communion and alliegance with the Catholic church that I am somehow less of a Christian because of it.

Now I have been baptized “in the Name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit”. I have given my life over to Christ as my Lord and Savior. I try to submit myself to conforming to the will of God in my life as best as I can understand it through the interpretation of scripture, the guidance of the Holy Spirit in prayer, and the accountable fellowship of other Christians. I value and respect the teachings of all within Christendom as informative to living the Christian life in both word and dead. And I acknowledge that I am not right in all things and am still growing, still learning, and that I have much to learn from many who have gone before me throughout 2000 years of Church history ((this includes, but is not limited to, even Catholic teachings) . But ultimately I am not Catholic. I a United Methodist. And I find myself most closely in agreement and comfortable with the theology, practice, and administrative structures of United Methodism (however imperfect they themselves are).

So, I want to know, from a Catholic persprective, do you those of you here who are Catholics think that a non-Catholic Christian can get into heaven without “swimming the Tiber”?

 

[Harpazo]

I myself will say: we don’t know for sure. No Protestant, or non-Catholic for that matter, has come back after dying to tell us. The Church has said that it’s possible for those outside of the Church to attain Heaven through invincible ignorance. That doesn’t mean it’s guaranteed either way. We just don’t know.

It isn’t guaranteed that any of us will reach Heaven. I saw in someone’s signature this beautiful quote (or something along these lines) “The Catholic faith may be the hardest religion to live by, but it’s the safest to die by.” All we Catholics can do is keep fighting the good fight. The reason Catholics (I myself am guilty of this) are sometimes too zealous in sharing the Faith with Protestants is for the very fact that we don’t know for sure if they can attain Heaven. Rather than taking the risk and sitting on our cabooses, we want to help those outside of the Church to find it.

That’s all I’ve got. It’s a lot shorter than a message on a fortune cookie.

In Pax Christi
Andrew

 

[Fitz]

So, I want to know, from a Catholic persprective, do you those of you here who are Catholics think that a non-Catholic Christian can get into heaven without “swimming the Tiber”?

Yes, I think they just might make it. However, just in case, then why not make sure of salvation?

 

[Johndigger]

IThe Church has said that it’s possible for those outside of the Church to attain Heaven through invincible ignorance. That doesn’t mean it’s guaranteed either way. We just don’t know.

Well, this isn’t quite true. The Church has said that “there is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church”

However, to use the “tiber” analogy - there are two ways of swimming the tiber.

The first is the normal way - the formal way joining the visible Church and having sacraments of baptism, Eucharist, confession etc

The second, in cases of invincible ignorance is where people can be joined to the Church without formally swimming the tiber by obeying the precepts of natural law and, by the grace of God, making an act of perfect contrition to obtain the gift of sanctifying grace (This is the grace that gets you into heaven)

We cannot say who specifically is going to hell. However, we are not to presume that God will save Non-Catholic Christians (Even though there’s no such thing) through the “second way”. This is why we must always evangelise.

One serious sin is enough to turn away from God and condemn our souls to hell. Non-Catholics have no way for their sins to be forgiven outside of confession except by perfect contrition, given by the grace of God.

Also, they have no Eucharist to strengthen them in the fight.

The Catholic Church hopes that all men are saved but knows that all will perish in the deluge if they are not joined to the Ark of Salvation.

JD

 

[JudiTherese]

Of course Protestants will go to heaven. Why wouldn’t they???

 

[StandUp4Truth]

I had a conversation with a Lutheran relative about this, because she insisted that Catholics believe everyone else is going to Hell.

I told her that’s not true, Catholics are taught to acknowledge that there can be salvation outside of the Church. However, we also believe that we have the complete truth about man’s relationship with God, and as such we are able to participate in the fullness of communion with God as members of the Catholic Church. Also, if someone leaves the Catholic Church(cases of schism or heresy) there can be no salvation because they have rejected the truth which God revealed to His people. There’s a great article explaining this here in the Library.

The joke I always like to tell is, people from other religions may still go to Heaven, but Catholics get to live in a nicer neighborhood.

 

[LilyM]

The joke I always like to tell is, people from other religions may still go to Heaven, but Catholics get to live in a nicer neighborhood.

Hehe - reminds me of that Simpsons episode where Bart and Homer become Catholic, although there it was Marge who ended up in the nicer (but more boring) ‘Protestant heaven’.

 

[BigFeet]

There’s a great article explaining this here in the Library.

From said article:

"However, for those who knowingly and deliberately (that is, not out of innocent ignorance) commit the sins of heresy (rejecting divinely revealed doctrine) or schism (separating from the Catholic Church and/or joining a schismatic church), no salvation would be possible until they repented and returned to live in Catholic unity. "

By the above definition, aren’t all protestants either heretics or schismatics?

“Whoever is separated from this Catholic Church, by this single sin of being separated from the unity of Christ, no matter how estimable a life he may imagine he is living, shall not have life, but the wrath of God rests upon him” (Saint Augustine - Letters 141:5 [A.D. 412]).

This is consistent with what all of the other early Church Fathers, saints, and Church councils have declared for the past 2,000 years.

 

[french]

Hello Grace Seeker! I am not 100% sure, but are you the member by the name of Grace Seeker on a forum called li islamic? If so, I am the member thirdwatch from there. Nice to see you here! If you are not the same person… Well, hi!!

Anyways, here is my take…

All the Apostolic denominations that are in Communion with the Church will definetely be able to reach salvation… So Orthodox, Coptic, etc… Nothing to worry about.

As for Protestants… It depends I think… Do they truly believe that their denomination is the Truth? Did they openly deny the Catholic Church and Her teachings? Did they use their best ability to see? I think depending on these answers, could depend on whether or not protestants can receive Salvation.

I hope that helps!

 

[mozart-250]

Hehe - reminds me of that Simpsons episode where Bart and Homer become Catholic, although there it was Marge who ended up in the nicer (but more boring) ‘Protestant heaven’.

Oh I Love that Simpsons episode.

 

[Angainor]

Can a non-Catholic Christian get to heaven without becoming Catholic first?

I don’t like the way that question is worded.

I would say rather that the free means of salvation are most certainly found only in the one holy catholic and apostolic Church*.
I believe in the Holy Ghost; one holy catholic Church, the communion of saints; the forgiveness of sins; the resurrection of the body; and the life everlasting. Amen.†
What does this mean?–Answer.
I believe that I cannot by my own reason or strength believe in Jesus Christ, my Lord, or come to Him; but the Holy Ghost has called me by the Gospel, enlightened me with His gifts, sanctified and kept me in the true faith; even as He calls, gathers, enlightens, and sanctifies the whole Christian Church on earth, and keeps it with Jesus Christ in the one true faith; in which Christian Church He forgives daily and richly all sins to me and all believers, and at the last day will raise up me and all the dead, and will give to me and to all believers in Christ everlasting life. This is most certainly true.

*from the Nicene Creed
†from the Apostle’s Creed

 

[jabelltulsa]

So, I want to know, from a Catholic persprective, do you those of you here who are Catholics think that a non-Catholic Christian can get into heaven without “swimming the Tiber”?

Once Baptized, I believe, that you can get into Heaven. However, I also believe that mortal sins have to be confessed, and you have to receive Absolution as Christ instructed. How are you to get that outside of valid Sacraments?

 

[RachelC]

Ok this is my first post but I have been on this website awhile now. I am a Christian but not Catholic. I am interested in learning more however…as for the topic question…Do Catholics have any biblical basis for the belief that u have to be a memeber of the Church in order to go to heaven? Or even the belief that all things being equal except where ur membership is that the Catholic will be better off?
Some verses for my opinion Matt 12:50
Mark 9:38-42
Thank you for helping me out=-)

 

[Grace_Seeker]

Of course Protestants will go to heaven. Why wouldn’t they???

Judi, I don’t know. But it seems that there are some who don’t think that we will.

As the Catholic church officially recognizes those who have been baptized outside of the Catholic church to still be recipients of valid Christian baptism, are not those who argue that non-Catholic Christians cannot get to heaven arguing against the accepted teaching of the Catholic church?

 

[buffalo]

If you find yourself in heaven you will be part of the one, holy, Catholic and apostolic church Jesus founded.

 

[Subrosa]

Ok this is my first post but I have been on this website awhile now. I am a Christian but not Catholic. I am interested in learning more however…as for the topic question…Do Catholics have any biblical basis for the belief that u have to be a memeber of the Church in order to go to heaven? Or even the belief that all things being equal except where ur membership is that the Catholic will be better off?
Some verses for my opinion Matt 12:50
Mark 9:38-42
Thank you for helping me out=-)

While the Catholic Church understands itself to be the mystical Body of Christ and therefore the only source of salvation in this world, it claims no exclusivity when it comes to salvation.

Read Romans 2:14-16.

Subrosa

 

[ClaireS]

Unfair poll!! Yes if they do not realise the Catholic church is the true church. Maybe not if they know but won’t come in.

 

[MotherNoRest]

All I want to know is: does the passage in Romans 2:12-16 give us (Catholic Church) the basis for invincible ignorance or does this passage refer to something else with regard to the early church and gentile converts?

Also, a convert I once heard made a great point: many Protestants want to ask others “Are you born again?” though Jesus said that phrase but once to Nicodemus. This convert asks, " Why aren’t Protestants asking, ‘Have you eaten the flesh of Christ and drunk his blood?’ when Jesus has reiterated that 4 times in John 6."

To non-Catholics who say, “I believe in Christ and follow Him, what else is required?” I would say this: “Jesus says, unless you eat the flesh of the son of man and drink his blood, you have no life within you. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me and I in him and I will raise him up on the last day.”

Does it get any more clear than that???

 

[Grace_Seeker]

Does it get any more clear than that???

The list of things that are clear to one and unclear to another seem to be determined not just by what scripture actually says but by the hermeneutic one uses when reading it. I suggest that this verse does not mean what you think it means.

 

[BigFeet]

I suggest that this verse does not mean what you think it means.

If this is what you believe, then you need to study Catholic teaching. In John 6:53, when Jesus said, “Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you”, He meant exactly what He said, and for the past 2,000 years, the Church has always understood what He meant.

Study the writings of the Church fathers, along with what every Church council has proclaimed over the centuries, and you will have no doubt. The only place you can receive His body and blood to eat and drink is in the Catholic Church. You cannot have eternal life without the Catholic Church.