Can a Pope Come Under Evil Influences

[lakotak]

Is it possible for a pope to come under evil influences and declare that a doctrine of truth is no longer a truth or alter it in some way; would the Holy Spirit intervene at this point to protect the Word of God?

 

[revert_jen]

My understanding is that the promise of Christ precludes a pope from declaring false doctrine (but not from believing in false doctrine). So yes, I think the Holy Spirit would intervene.

–Jen

 

[chero23]

My understanding is that the promise of Christ precludes a pope from declaring false doctrine (but not from believing in false doctrine). So yes, I think the Holy Spirit would intervene.

–Jen

Like your response

 

[Antegin]

Satan reminds me of a jealous child throwing a temper tantrum. He may see the shiny holy pope and kick and scream to have him, but the Father says who what and when Satan can mess with any man and when Satan’s going to do some time out in hell.

 

[Dorothy]

I don’t know if a pope has declared a doctrine untrue…but popes in the past have murdered, had mistresses, sold the papacy away, etc, etc, etc.

Do any of those things count as falling “under evil influences”?

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There have been popes who have been great sinners, and thankfully for the promise of our Lord Jesus Christ, that fact does not eclipse the truth that the Church officially teaches.

 

[lakotak]

I don’t know if a pope has declared a doctrine untrue…but popes in the past have murdered, had mistresses, sold the papacy away, etc, etc, etc.

Do any of those things count as falling “under evil influences”?

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i think I was thinking more in terms of being able to reverse or alter Church doctrine rather than carnal sins.

 

[tryphon]

I don’t know if a pope has declared a doctrine untrue…but popes in the past have murdered, had mistresses, sold the papacy away, etc, etc, etc.

Do any of those things count as falling “under evil influences”?

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Were you there? Did you walk in their shoes? We have been conditioned by centuries of anti-papal rumors and lies. Yes, even before the reformation, Popes had many powerful enemies. You should read the book Pope Fiction, to see how some of those rumors were complete fabrications.
Let’s admit that a Pope ordered someone’s death…was it in order to save more lives? Was it in defence of the Faith? You and I were not there, we do not know the circumstances nor the actual happenings.
Having a mistress…well, I am sure they confessed their sins and were forgiven.

 

[phil_at_dayboro]

I would assume a Pope would have a room full of top class advisers,that would advise a Pope that a mistake is being made,

 

[DavidFilmer]

I was thinking more in terms of being able to reverse or alter Church doctrine rather than carnal sins.

The Church teaches that, while a Pope may be a sinner, the Holy Spirit (not advisers) would prevent him from tampering with doctrine.

The fact that 266 Popes have spanned 2000 years (by far the most long-lasting system of governance the world has ever known) and no Pope has done so (not even unnintentionally) is unprecedented. Some of those Popes were outright sinners. But none attempted to enshrine his poor behavior into Church doctrine.

 

[phil19034]

Totally.
Though they were not so good teaching by example, I’d say. I wonder how many souls they negatively influenced because of their great sinning.

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I would imagine not many. Until the invention of the television and the media we have today, people didn’t even know what the Pope looked like unless they lived in Rome (or if he was formerly their bishop).

Also, people would not have known any of this. And some of the stories are made up by the Protestant Revolution. Some instances are very true, but some are false. Most of the true ones we know now from documented sources.

But the average lay person back then would not have had access to that information, nor the average priest or bishop.

 

[AKDee]

I don’t know if a pope has declared a doctrine untrue…but popes in the past have murdered, had mistresses, sold the papacy away, etc, etc, etc.

Do any of those things count as falling “under evil influences”?

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All true, but on issues of doctrine they remained true to Christ’s teachings. They failed as men, but not as Pope. That’s what the Holy Spirit does for the Church.

 

[phil19034]

Is it possible for a pope to come under evil influences and declare that a doctrine of truth is no longer a truth or alter it in some way; would the Holy Spirit intervene at this point to protect the Word of God?

A Pope can personally give into and even personally believe a heresy. But he cannot change doctrine.

There was a heretical Pope once (I forget his name at the moment), but he never changed any doctrine or dogma. He was later officially even officially declared a heretic after his death; but he never changed anything or bind the Church to anything heretical.

 

[commenter]

I don’t know if a pope has declared a doctrine untrue…but popes in the past have murdered, had mistresses, sold the papacy away, etc, etc, etc.

Do any of those things count as falling “under evil influences”?

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Actually the biggest papal scandal came earlier; the one Christ referred to as Satan. He explicitly denied Christ, among other scandalous behaviors. Why overlook the biggest scandal of all?

Of course all popes have evil influences. That is why they go to Confession. Popes are supposed to be role models - everyone else also is supposed to be role models.

Papal infallibility has nothing to do with his own personal sin, or goodness (important in themselves!) It does not exactly mean the pope will always speak the truth. It means that under certain circumstances, if he does teach on faith and morals, he will be prevented from teaching a falsehood. But if he does speak, you will hear the truth. It is a charism for the Church as a whole. For him personally of course his spiritual evil and goodness is crucial.

 

[Dorothy]

Totally.
Though they were not so good teaching by example, I’d say. I wonder how many souls they negatively influenced because of their great sinning.

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God only knows. Thankfully there were many saints who cooperated with the grace of God and influenced many positively.

 

[mikekle]

My understanding is that the promise of Christ precludes a pope from declaring false doctrine (but not from believing in false doctrine). So yes, I think the Holy Spirit would intervene.

–Jen

Doesnt the verse about many people being fooled by the great deception God will send, say something about even the elect being fooled by this as well? Im assuming the ‘elect’ means the upper ranks of Christianity.

So, they may be fooled, but the question is, for how long, before the Holy Spirit intervened?

 

[ichabode]

Is it possible for a pope to come under evil influences?

Yes, it is called the curia.

 

[commenter]

Doesnt the verse about many people being fooled by the great deception God will send, say something about even the elect being fooled by this as well? Im assuming the ‘elect’ means the upper ranks of Christianity.

So, they may be fooled, but the question is, for how long, before the Holy Spirit intervened?

God does not send any deception. Some people have always been fooled by deceptions, and will be in the future. There is no mention that church leaders will be more deceived than anyone else. The Holy Spirit is never inactive, there would be no reason for the Holy Spirit to pause guidance before “intervening” again. Christ’s promise God will be with the Church always, did not specify an exception, a period without guidance.

 

[Dorothy]

Yes. I was there. And I walked in their shoes.

I haven’t heard any anti-papal rumors and lies, so I’m not sure which ones you speak of.

But I read the well-documented events of the Synod of Rome in 963, for example, when Pope John XII was charged with many sins and witnesses testified and the pope was deposed. And I read the words written by the Bishop of Cremona as to the “sinful” way the pope died.

I’ve read the words written by Pope Victor III, for example, when he writes about about Pope Benedict IV: “his rapes, murders and other unspeakable acts of violence and sodomy. His life as a pope was so vile, so foul, so execrable, that I shudder to think of it.”

And so on, and so forth.

I don’t know if you consider sworn testimony and the writings of these popes as rumors and lies? But they seem just as reliable to me, for example, as the writings of the gospels of which we don’t even know who wrote them.

That’s really great if these popes had their mistresses and their sins were forgiven.

But I still think for a pope to have mistresses–even if he’s forgiven–is still not setting a good example for Catholics.

Do you?

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Of course it is not a good example…sin never is.

I can’t help but repeat about the many saints and martyrs that lived then and now, that inspire and show what can be done when we put the Lord first and follow Him. To focus on negativity helps no one.

 

[mikekle]

God does not send any deception. Some people have always been fooled by deceptions, and will be in the future. There is no mention that church leaders will be more deceived than anyone else. The Holy Spirit is never inactive, there would be no reason for the Holy Spirit to pause guidance before “intervening” again. Christ’s promise God will be with the Church always, did not specify an exception, a period without guidance.

Second Thessalonians 2:9-11 “The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false.”

 

[tryphon]

Yes. I was there. And I walked in their shoes.

I haven’t heard any anti-papal rumors and lies, so I’m not sure which ones you speak of.

But I read the well-documented events of the Synod of Rome in 963, for example, when Pope John XII was charged with many sins and witnesses testified and the pope was deposed. And I read the words written by the Bishop of Cremona as to the “sinful” way the pope died.

I’ve read the words written by Pope Victor III, for example, when he writes about about Pope Benedict IV: “his rapes, murders and other unspeakable acts of violence and sodomy. His life as a pope was so vile, so foul, so execrable, that I shudder to think of it.”

And so on, and so forth.

I don’t know if you consider sworn testimony and the writings of these popes as rumors and lies? But they seem just as reliable to me, for example, as the writings of the gospels of which we don’t even know who wrote them.

That’s really great if these popes had their mistresses and their sins were forgiven.

But I still think for a pope to have mistresses–even if he’s forgiven–is still not setting a good example for Catholics.

Do you?

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I was not there, unlike you! I do not know how truthful the accusers were, what was their position re: the Papacy, etc… I am glad you do…