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NewEnglandPriest
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A parish family? That’s extreme and I wouldn’t blame someone one bit for refusing to move in with total strangers for 6 months till a wedding.
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agapewolf
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Not when we are talking about the salvation of souls and the good it can do for the couple in their preparation, their freedom in their vows, reducing temptation, being in a courtship situation…
and who says they are strangers?
I stand by my statement about having never have come across a couple that had obstacles too big they couldn’t seperate for 6 months.
Financial? Ridiculous. What would they do if they didn’t know each other? They’d survive somehow. Again, that is what the parish family is for if necessary.
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FrDavid96
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How many of those couples (a rough estimate on percentage) actually DID seperate for 6 months? AND eventually have their situation regularized?
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agapewolf
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probably none…why is that important? Just because they don’t take the advice doesn’t mean its bad advice.
I do know plenty of people who had chose to have 1/2 of the couple live in someone else’s extra room rather than live with their future spouse because they cared enough about it.
This question doesn’t prove anything.
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Melchior_1
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I think everyone can be agreed on the original question; “can a priest refuse matrimony?”
Can they? Yes.
Should they? Well…there’s a reason Canon Law is vague. It depends on the situation.
In the case I mentioned in an earlier post my buddy and his girl clearly could live separately for a bit. They’re both young, his dad is an ordained Deacon so he’d obviously be alright with his son moving back home for a couple of months. She’ll even be going to school in another city in the fall. They have also only been living together for about a month now, and no kids are involved. In this case…a Priest could easily say “how about you guys live apart until the wedding”.
In another case, as has been mentioned, there could be something different. A seven year old might not understand why mommy and daddy have to live apart for six months. There could be fiances, there could be a lot of things.
I see what you’re getting at Agape, and for the most part I agree with you. As someone who runs RCIA for youth I’m very conscious about people state of being and state of Grace before reception of the Sacraments. But not only do I have no say in Marriage (I handle the instruction for Baptism, Confirmation, and first Eucharist) but Canon Law in this case is clearly unclear for these reasons. Everyone is different, every situation is different.
So the short answer is yes they can. The long answer is much more complicated.
Can they? Yes.
Should they? Well…there’s a reason Canon Law is vague. It depends on the situation.
In the case I mentioned in an earlier post my buddy and his girl clearly could live separately for a bit. They’re both young, his dad is an ordained Deacon so he’d obviously be alright with his son moving back home for a couple of months. She’ll even be going to school in another city in the fall. They have also only been living together for about a month now, and no kids are involved. In this case…a Priest could easily say “how about you guys live apart until the wedding”.
In another case, as has been mentioned, there could be something different. A seven year old might not understand why mommy and daddy have to live apart for six months. There could be fiances, there could be a lot of things.
I see what you’re getting at Agape, and for the most part I agree with you. As someone who runs RCIA for youth I’m very conscious about people state of being and state of Grace before reception of the Sacraments. But not only do I have no say in Marriage (I handle the instruction for Baptism, Confirmation, and first Eucharist) but Canon Law in this case is clearly unclear for these reasons. Everyone is different, every situation is different.
So the short answer is yes they can. The long answer is much more complicated.
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FrDavid96
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The question, and more importantly the answer “probably none” proves quite a bit: It proves that it isn’t sound pastoral practice. As I’ve said, it’s very easy to type the words “just tell them to live apart” on a web forum, but in real-life it’s not that easy. If it were, your answer would have been something like “most of them do seperate.” If it were that easy, priests would be doing it, and doing it successfully.
Given that your success rate is “probably none” that shows that the method isn’t effective.
Couples have to be given the opportunity to make things right, and this has to be done with pastoral sensitivity and in light of God’s mercy and forgiveness. It likewise has to be done in such a way that does not compromise the Church’s sound teaching that living together is a sin. This is not an easy thing to do–not in real life. Every couple’s situation is unique.
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FrDavid96
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I agree with what you’re saying, except for one thing. Canon law is indeed clear on what constitutes an impediment to marriage. There’s a whole section of the marriage law which defines impediments, and also clearly states that the local pastor cannot add his own impediments (or his own prerequisites, which are likely defined).
A priest can only delay or refuse marriage for reasons which are already articulated in canon law. Even though we might not be comfortable performing a given ceremony, we have an obligation to do so unless something defined by the law prevents us.
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catsrus
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I personally know of just such a thing.
A Priest at my old parish in AZ refused to marry a couple on the day of the wedding! The groom showed up still drunk and an announcement was made that the wedding would not take place that day.
What a faithful Priest!! I so admired him for that decision though he caught plenty of grief from the families involved. Hopefully, they ALL learned a lesson.
A Priest at my old parish in AZ refused to marry a couple on the day of the wedding! The groom showed up still drunk and an announcement was made that the wedding would not take place that day.
What a faithful Priest!! I so admired him for that decision though he caught plenty of grief from the families involved. Hopefully, they ALL learned a lesson.
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Sarabande
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I do not give any prenuptial counseling as I am not qualified, but speaking to a number of priests regarding cohabitation with couples and how they handle it (I do music for so many weddings and sometimes you just get talking with the various priests of different parishes), they all pretty much convey their situations how you described it. For them, they take each couple and deal with them individually. And they all said the same thing… it is not as “easy” as it is on paper. Of course, they would want the couple to do what it right according to the Church’s teaching, but as you mention, each situation is unique and as you and these other priests mentioned, needs pastoral sensitivity. It seems that their main concern is to not drive these people away, so they appear to create this balancing act of being sensitive, yet still hold true to God’s teachings.
That’s not to say that I didn’t meet priests who absolutely do not like performing the sacrament of marriage because of this very situation. They’ve become quite jaded, which is also not surprising. I don’t envy priests’ jobs at all, especially in regards to this. I can imagine how difficult in real life this can be sometimes.
In my own diocese, they began tailoring pre-cana classes for people who cohabitate, have children together outside of marriage, older couples, etc. I think because the diocese realize it is a big problem. From what I understand by talking to one of the couples who attended this class, it was very helpful to them. There is a way to present things to people in all aspects of life with the right amount of sensitivity, yet to not disregard the teachings of the Church. I believe that is how these classes were presented.
In regards to the OP, I have known a priest who wanted to delay the marriage of a couple because the bride in question didn’t appear psychologically ready to get married and recommended further counseling.
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agapewolf
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Nope…I didn’t say easy, I said simple. 2 different things.
You contradict yourself first you say “if it were that easy priests would be doing it” Then at the end “its not easy” but still needs to be done.
Most "Catholic " couples use contraception…that doesn’t make it “unsound pastoral practice” to recommend them not to.
Sorry, this doesn’t fly. It’s still a very simple solution. Live apart. It can be done. And actually, if viewed in light of the devastating effects that cohabitation has on marriages, relatively, it is quite easy. As I said before, I do know many couples that have chosen it because its the right thing to do.
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Melissa
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Well, it’s not so much the financial issues as, in the case mentioned, the man having difficulty keeping a steady job. Quite frankly, that points to issues with that man which may very well prove an impediment to marriage (not the inability to hold a job, but the reason why he cannot remain employed).
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Miss_Linda
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AMEN!!!
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Sarabande
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For point number 2, I personally believe there are ways to survive living in separate abodes, although I do agree that a priest technically can’t refuse to marry them if they are living together. I lived in a major metropolitan city when I was engaged, so the cost of living wasn’t cheap. In fact, I could have lived home with my parents, but decided that it would be better for me to be out on my own before sharing my life with my future husband. This was also because much of what I did was in the city and I didn’t need a car if I lived in the city. Was it difficult? Yes, very, although it was my choice so I don’t complain. For two years I worked 7 days a week as a music teacher at a school, an admin. assistant, a children’s choir and handbell director, as a cantor and as a free-lance musician in which I was just starting out so I wasn’t getting that many gigs yet. I had to find ways to cut costs. When my sister was able to, we shared a one-bedroom apartment. It would have been much, much easier for me to live with my future husband.
So, for me, if anyone did ask me about the difficulty of living apart before marriage, I would be able to tell them that it can be done and that it is a short sacrifice, comparatively speaking. In this regard, I think having real-life examples of people who made it work without living together in marriage prep classes for couples is very important. They just have to be sure they don’t get a couple who comes off as too judgemental or holier-than-thou. Having people who can read individual couples well and how they react to certain personalities is important. Just as you need sensitive priests sometimes, you also need sensitive lay couples who can convey the right information to those who need it. That said there are people who respond well when others are tough on them. In that regard, one can appear stern and hard. But I think the majority don’t work well like that.
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NewEnglandPriest
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Yes, they could survive if they hadn’t already merged their finances and made certain financial decisions/investments/purchases based on their current situation. And, of course, any children adds to the complications.
This is a matter of dealing with the is, instead of the what if…
And when it comes to their souls, we’re faced with 2 possible outcomes. If they refuse to seperate then we can give them such a hard time that they opt for a civil marriage or we can try and work with what we have and get them sacramentally married.
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Melchior_1
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Good to know. This also explains why I’m a Catechist and not a Canon Lawyer
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agapewolf
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Yes exactly… already merged. That is a problem…because how free are they when they say their vows. They are “already merged”. That is why separating is so desperately important, if no other way but physical home. The goal here isn’t to “get them sacramentally married”. The goal is to help them work out their salvation.
Your 2 outcomes are not the only ones possible: You forgot others: Gently but firmly teaching the whys about the church and her love for souls. Help them meet Jesus and figure out their lives aren’t in accordance with the Gospel where they want to do the right thing and go through the proper process.
-2nd: Going through a discermnet with them that they figure out they shouldn’t marry each other.
I don’t think that the only successful outcome here is to " get them sacramentally married".
Let’s look at the bigger picture: If its a really precarious situation, and they jump through the hoops to get sacramentally married, and they divorce afterwards because they didn’t have adequate formation and freedom before hand…how is this good? It’s not. Living together is actually doing them harm, and the harm will continue to last long into the marriage, even if sacramental.
If they get civilly married, they don’t have the grace with the sacrament. Likely to not work out. Annulments not an issue here because it wasn’t valid in the first place.
I met a priest who has decided he refuses to set couples up for divorce anymore. He meets 10-20 times if necessary with them to help the couple meet Jesus.
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NewEnglandPriest
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Sorry, but there’s a lot of holes there. Even if people are living in separate residences their finances can still be merged to the “point of no return.” And merely moving in with one’s relatives doesn’t solve that problem.
Sounds nice in theory, but not so much in practice. Weddings almost always come with a time frame. If they can’t get their marriage in a Catholic Church within a certain time frame then most of them will simply get married civilly.
Nonsense. While you are correct that they will not have the grace of the sacrament, I’ve done plenty of validations in my day to know that they do work out.
I would highly recommend against that. The couple has a natural and canonical right to marriage. Unless there’s an obvious impediment any unreasonable delay would be a violation of their rights. And, of course, what the priest is doing in that situation is setting himself up as judge and jury of couples and every priest will have his own standards and ideas thus leading to much confusion, anger, and hurt among couples throughout the Church. Priests don’t have the right to mess with people’s lives simply because they want to. That’s why we have canon law which spells it all out for us.
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Julianna
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I am glad you brought this out. While it is true some who live together, get married, it doesn’t work out…and that can be said the same for those who did not co habitate and are now divorced.
Our priest said the same. He saw us at Mass every week. He taught the pre cana classes. I was expecting fire and brimestone. Instead, after we told him, "Well, you both are here now, and that is good."
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agapewolf
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There’s not “a lot of holes”. I said that they may have merged their lives together in so many ways that at least a physical separation would be good. No, it doesn’t fix everything, but its something. It can put things into perspective.
Its not nonsense. To deny that there is a relationship between marriages staying together and grace is the nonsense.
It is not a “violation of rights” when a priest can see that the couple has no idea what the sacrament they are trying to get is. The priest is the guardian of sacraments. This isn’t “messing with people’s lives”. This is helping their salvation.
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agapewolf
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The last 2 pages seem to have morphed into a different discussion.
I’ve never said a priest should deny a sacrament due to a couple living together. There was a question about “how hard” it was for them to separate. This is the argument I’ve been discussing.
As I said in the beginning, its actually quite simple.
For the priest I referred to a few posts above, he has many success stories. Some couples choose to leave and go to another priest. But many stay. in fact, he had one couple living together at first, and their first meeting was reading the gospel together. They came to see their lives were not in line with Gospel. (They were also coming for Confirmation). They stopped living together, got married, and brought 3 new couples to see this priest. He is refusing to set them up for divorce by giving them the best possible tools and evangelizing them in a sacramental formation for their vocation, catechesis. He’s not just “regularizing a living situation” to “get them sacramentally married”.
A priest has to go through 6-8 years of formation and education to achieve his vocational sacrament. I dont’ understand why a priest caring enough to catechize those that approach him for a vocational sacrament is considered “messing with their lives”.
I’ve never said a priest should deny a sacrament due to a couple living together. There was a question about “how hard” it was for them to separate. This is the argument I’ve been discussing.
As I said in the beginning, its actually quite simple.
For the priest I referred to a few posts above, he has many success stories. Some couples choose to leave and go to another priest. But many stay. in fact, he had one couple living together at first, and their first meeting was reading the gospel together. They came to see their lives were not in line with Gospel. (They were also coming for Confirmation). They stopped living together, got married, and brought 3 new couples to see this priest. He is refusing to set them up for divorce by giving them the best possible tools and evangelizing them in a sacramental formation for their vocation, catechesis. He’s not just “regularizing a living situation” to “get them sacramentally married”.
A priest has to go through 6-8 years of formation and education to achieve his vocational sacrament. I dont’ understand why a priest caring enough to catechize those that approach him for a vocational sacrament is considered “messing with their lives”.
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