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tafan
Guest
Ok, Fr. I stand corrected. Although when I went to St Peter’s I could certainly not see the priest and I assumed he could not see me. The other confessionals all appeared the same way,
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Don_Ruggero
Guest
What you wrote is still wrong. It is not always an option for a penitent seeking the sacrament of penance to “ALWAYS” [your word, your emphasis] receive it behind some form of screen.
As others have correctly pointed out, you also made an error in responding to Adam: confessionals are, as he said, a relatively recent innovation, compared to the sacrament itself, and so that point you also answered wrongly.
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Don_Ruggero
Guest
Here is a good photo of one of the confessionals in the basilica with the screen visible beside Pope Francis. The best English word I can come up with is that the fixed grate is like a metal mesh…rather like strainers used in cooking…we can see through it, if we look through it.
http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/content/uploads/2015/03/20140331cnsbr4672-800x500.jpg
There are some confessionals in Saint Peter’s, on the other side of the transept and by the altar of Saint Joseph, which have a grate that is a series of perforated holes…but the confessor can still see the penitent.
If you look closely at the original picture, you can make out details of the penitent’s compartment, so obviously the penitent’s face is visible…albeit obscured.
Now a penitent would be free to further obscure their face by turning it to the side as they confess or using their hand/hands or such artifices to make themselves less visible.
And the confessor is sitting sideways, so the confessor would normally not face the penitent. Unlike when I have heard confessions on visits to the United States, where confessionals are typically entirely enclosed or else replaced by the use of reconciliation rooms, we are really using whispers in these older style confessionals and so having my ear at the grate is important, in order to hear what is being said.
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tafan
Guest
Dr. Don Ruggero, You say that the grate is not about anonymity, what is its purpose?
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Don_Ruggero
Guest
It is invariably unfortunate when non-Europeans look at our confessionals and attempt tp extrapolate our practices involving the sacrament of penance. We know how to use our confessionals…and we assuredly do receive the sacrament face to face.
http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/content/uploads/2015/09/Untitled.png
Some priests will choose to close the doors when they are in the confessional…but that makes this style of confessional exceedingly uncomfortable for the confessor. At times, it becomes stifling for the lack of circulation of air, especially in the days before electric fans could be added! Some leave the door open
http://www.catholicsentinel.org/SiteImages/Article/24381a.jpg
Some will simply leave the door ajar enough not to be completely closed in and to allow fresh air to enter
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
And, even in Saint Peter’s, the confessionals, many though they are, are not always employed as when the Cardinals and Bishops were hearing confessions during a penitential service in the pontificate of Pope Benedict XVI.
http://s2.reutersmedia.net/resource...06-04T191844Z_01_BTRE5531HND00_RTROPTP_0_POPE
http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/content/uploads/2015/09/Untitled.png
Some priests will choose to close the doors when they are in the confessional…but that makes this style of confessional exceedingly uncomfortable for the confessor. At times, it becomes stifling for the lack of circulation of air, especially in the days before electric fans could be added! Some leave the door open
http://www.catholicsentinel.org/SiteImages/Article/24381a.jpg
Some will simply leave the door ajar enough not to be completely closed in and to allow fresh air to enter
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
And, even in Saint Peter’s, the confessionals, many though they are, are not always employed as when the Cardinals and Bishops were hearing confessions during a penitential service in the pontificate of Pope Benedict XVI.
http://s2.reutersmedia.net/resource...06-04T191844Z_01_BTRE5531HND00_RTROPTP_0_POPE
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carefullytread
Guest
The original purpose of the grate was to physically separate the priest and the penitent. If you look at old artist depictions of confessions, you often see a lot of physical contact between the two participants. I have read that sometimes they would hold hands or hug!
The major early proponent (and possibly inventor, although I’ve also read sources claiming he copied the innovation of Giberti) is St. Borromeo, archbishop of Milan. The reform was introduced to response to concerns (possibly exaggerated, possibly rampant depending on who you read) of priests sexually harassing and abusing female penitents.
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Don_Ruggero
Guest
It served as a fixed barrier between the confessor and the penitent; it kept them physically separated.
Prior to the reform and renewal of the sacrament mandated by the world’s bishops in Sacrosanctum Concilium, while the confessions of men could be heard always and outside of sacred spaces, confessions of women were ordinarily to be heard in a confessional with a fixed grill. There were, I hasten to add, various exceptions enumerated but the emphasis in those days was that we were to take extra precaution, in such circumstances involving women.
Personally, I have never taken photos of my various confessionals over the years. This photo, from The Irish Times, however exemplifies the degree of opaqueness of various confessionals I have used over the years. Some were more opaque. Some, believe it or not, were even less opaque.
All of this said, I do agree completely with Don Fortea, who published on the topic of an availability, to at least some degree in a diocese, of confessionals that truly do offer anonymous confessional.
Don Fortea is a well esteemed and respected moral theologian, although I have no idea if he is known at all in North America.
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Don_Ruggero
Guest
SOME people are uncomfortable. Many many are not. It has been years since I have not confessed face to face, when I myself receive the sacrament. It is certainly not the practice of the Churches in the East to have screens and such.
Are you a priest? How do you presume to say the ratio of how many voices I am able to recognise, above all in places where I have served for years? That aside, the priest should not indicate he knows who the person is, unless the penitent makes clear that s/he intends him to know…such as, “Father, this is [Name]” That does not mean we do not recognise the voices of penitents.
These priests should be reported to the Bishop of the diocese in which they are hearing confessions, as well as the Vicar of Clergy or, if in Europe, the Canon Penitentiary so that appropriate action can be taken against them.
Fortunately, the Holy See and the world’s bishops totally disagree with you on face to face confession being a bad convention. And theirs is the only decision that matters, in the end.
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Phemie
Guest
We have a reconciliation room that offers the option of confessing behind a grill as we first walk in or walking further into the room and sitting in a chair facing the confessor. It gives a feeling of anonymity but if the overhead light is on and I can clearly see the priest there is no reason to believe he can’t see me. I will say, though, that he doesn’t turn his head to look at who is there.
I’ve confessed face to face lots of times since it became a thing while I was a teenager some 50 years ago. I still feel more comfortable kneeling behind the grill than sitting in front of the priest.
I’ve confessed face to face lots of times since it became a thing while I was a teenager some 50 years ago. I still feel more comfortable kneeling behind the grill than sitting in front of the priest.
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1Lord1Faith
Guest
One Saturday before Mass, more people than usual showed up for confession. I was last in line and no one else showed up after me. Mass started at 5:00 and I probably got into the confessional around 4:50. I went into the confessional and knelt down in front of the curtain that separated the priest from myself. I made a quick confession, and as I was getting up from the kneeler, Father gets up, comes around the curtain and says with a worried look on his face, “Is anyone else out there?”. I said no and we walked out together. I thought it was endearing.
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Roseeurekacross
Guest
When I was a kid in the 60’s, the confessionals were much like the photos shown, with grilles between the Priest and the confessor, and the Priest sitting in a confessional.
Today there is a reconcilliation room with an option of sitting face to face or kneeling behind a curtain that is see through. The room has a big glass door, so there is not much privacy.
Because of Case 50, the confessionals were removed.
Today there is a reconcilliation room with an option of sitting face to face or kneeling behind a curtain that is see through. The room has a big glass door, so there is not much privacy.
Because of Case 50, the confessionals were removed.
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Phemie
Guest
Why should they be reported? There is no obligation for the priest to hear face-to-face confession. That was clarified by a dubium as I recall. AAS, XC, 1998, p. 711
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Don_Ruggero
Guest
I have had occasion in my travels to occupy reconciliation rooms, with a glass door. I very much liked them.
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Don_Ruggero
Guest
Actually, no. A priest cannot require all confessions to take place behind a fixed grill. That simply is not possible or feasible. It was also impossible prior to the Council.
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Phemie
Guest
OK, can we say that if a confessional is available the priest cannot be compelled to hear confessions face-to-face?
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Don_Ruggero
Guest
I had occasion to lecture on this particular dubium, actually, and its practical applications.
In fact, the priest does have obligation to hear face to face confession. This was made clear because the dubium was submitted with the clause et excluso casu necessitatis
All else being equal, a parish priest could legitimately decide to normally hear scheduled confessions and confessions by appointment in the parish’s confessional, which could be so constructed as to necessitate using a fixed grill between confessor and penitent. It is a valid way of proceeding but often enough frankly has to be set aside, in the reality of pastoral life as it is actually lived today and in today’s society.
The important point to bear in mind, however, is that ultimately what the priest may think does and does not constitute a case of necessity and what the diocese’s Bishop, the Bishop’s Episcopal Vicar for Clergy, and/or the Canon Penitentiary may determine constitutes a case of necessity, on appeal from a penitent, may be markedly different. And it is the judgements of the Bishop and his curial officials that prevail…and the priest needs be mindful of that.
In the case upon which I was commenting, if these “several priests” “will not do face-to-face confessions,” one would have to look at the matter exactly. Yes…before I retired, I would most assuredly have wanted to be informed of that so that I could understand the scope of their refusal and so that I could have a thorough visit with each of them, and so that note could be made of this for the future.
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Don_Ruggero
Guest
We can say that if a confessional is truly and really available to the priest and is both accessible to and usable by the penitent, the priest can insist on it being used.
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tafan
Guest
I am not a priest, it is what I have been told by a priest. One who knew me pretty well told me he would not be sure if it was I behind the screen.
I said they will not normally do face-to-face confessions. I admit I overstated this. I have seen them in a retreat setting on multiple occasions, and they have set up a “temporary confessional” and it only allows for confessions behind the screen. My assumption is that this the way they prefer to hear confessions. One has told me so. Another priest told me he wished confessionals were still made that did not allow face-to-face.
Nevertheless, even if I did not overstate it, I am skeptical if they would be doing anything wrong.
And of course, I am obviously wrong as illustrated by the drastically increased use of the sacrament the last 40 years by the average lay person.
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JimG
Guest
When our parish church was remodeled some years ago, so were the confessionals. They were built to ensure more, not less, privacy.
Previously, the priest’s room in the middle was fully enclosed, with fixed grilles covered by curtains, but the penitents’ area on each side were enclosed at the back only by heavy curtains. As remodeled, the confessionals really consist of three separate rooms, with the priest in the middle, a fixed grille separating him from each penitent, with a curtain on both the priest’s and penitent’s side of the grille. The penitents’ rooms are fully enclosed and with an entry door, and are well lit. One comes in, closes the door, kneels down, and when the priest opens the slide, each can be heard but not seen.
If one wishes to make a face to face confession one would make an appointment to meet the priest in his office.
When we have penance services, other priests are located at the altar rails and the back of the church; there is of course no fixed grille or curtain in those locations, but in any case the priest is not looking at the penitent.
Previously, the priest’s room in the middle was fully enclosed, with fixed grilles covered by curtains, but the penitents’ area on each side were enclosed at the back only by heavy curtains. As remodeled, the confessionals really consist of three separate rooms, with the priest in the middle, a fixed grille separating him from each penitent, with a curtain on both the priest’s and penitent’s side of the grille. The penitents’ rooms are fully enclosed and with an entry door, and are well lit. One comes in, closes the door, kneels down, and when the priest opens the slide, each can be heard but not seen.
If one wishes to make a face to face confession one would make an appointment to meet the priest in his office.
When we have penance services, other priests are located at the altar rails and the back of the church; there is of course no fixed grille or curtain in those locations, but in any case the priest is not looking at the penitent.
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Roseeurekacross
Guest
It also seems to foster a little community. Everyone lines up outside the room waiting their turn, on pews. We chat quietly or pray. If someone goes in, or comes out upset, its quite a supportive environment.
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