Can a protestant church be called a church?

[mabu]

I was giving directions to a very religious TLM catholic, and said “turn left at the church”. They corrected me, saying “the ‘so-called’ church?”. I thought this was a little bit rude / unnecessary / offputting, but that aside, were they correct? I realize that these churches are not part of “the Church”, but is the word “church” itself reserved for Catholics? Not sure where to go on this one…

 

[CTBcin]

They’re just being snarky. In practical terms, it is still a church.

Welcome to the Forum, by the way.

 

[Wesrock]

Technically the Church’s definition is that a church is under a validly ordained bishop, so they had a technical, ecclesiological correct point. “The Church in Corinth,” “the Church in Ephesus,” etc…

That said… sometimes common usage is easier.

 

[phil19034]

I was giving directions to a very religious TLM catholic, and said “turn left at the church”. They corrected me, saying “the ‘so-called’ church?”. I thought this was a little bit rude / unnecessary / offputting, but that aside, were they correct? I realize that these churches are not part of “the Church”, but is the word “church” itself reserved for Catholics? Not sure where to go on this one…

Technically speaking yes.

From the point of Canon Law, the only Christian Churches are the Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Church, the Oriental Orthodox Churches, the Church of the East, Polish National Catholic Church, and most (not all) Old Catholic Churches.

Essentially, anywhere you find all 7 sacraments validly administered, with apostolic succession is a Church. Any other place would be an ecclesial community.

Ecclesial community - Wikipedia

BTW - it’s also worth noting that not all Catholic places are considered Churches either. While not popular in the United States, there are “Basic Ecclesial Communities” in the Catholic Church. These are popular in large geographic parishes in poor countries. Sometimes, these locations eventually become Chapels where mass can be given, but typically the Basic Ecclesial Community is more like a parish hall or meeting place where Deacons & lay ministers provide Bible Study, outreach, etc. away from the main Parish Church.

Basic ecclesial community - Wikipedia

So essentially, because all protestant ministers are considered laymen by the Catholic Church, a protestant “church” very similar to a Catholic “basic ecclesial community.”

God Bless

 

[porthos11]

I was giving directions to a very religious TLM catholic, and said “turn left at the church”. They corrected me, saying “the ‘so-called’ church?”. I thought this was a little bit rude / unnecessary / offputting, but that aside, were they correct? I realize that these churches are not part of “the Church”, but is the word “church” itself reserved for Catholics? Not sure where to go on this one…

If you’re referring to the building, then it’s a church.

If you’re referring to the denomination, I have no problem using the term “church” colloquially, as in “what church do you belong to?” but technically, they are not churches because they do not have apostolic origins, so they are technically “ecclesial communities”. The Catholic and Orthodox churches are churches in the true sense of the term.

It is possible to be correct and still snarky. Snark is not a good evangization method.

 

[mabu]

Thanks! Really interesting to hear about the ecclesial communities – I had not heard that before!

Unfortunately, the issue goes a bit beyond mere snark and technicality… I should have added that in the ensuing conversation they insisted that it is absolutely immoral to call it something it’s not. Paraphrasing their argument: "Jesus Christ defined what a church is and anyone who claims to be a church does so in order to deceive naive and lost people and leads them in the opposite direction of salvation. And that’s morally wrong. This is not a church. It is a Protestant congregation that illegally uses the word ‘church’. They should call themselves a worship centre, community fellowship, congregation, etc. – anything but a church. "

I think they see it on the same lines a gay “marriage” or calling a trans person born male a “woman” – whereby using the term they’ve chosen you’re affirming something untrue as if it were true?

 

[TC3033]

At this point in time, I probably would have excused myself from the conversation…

 

[mabu]

p.s. Any advice how to best respond? This is a close family member. And I’m Catholic too, just a little less… ummm… “militant” ?

 

[mabu]

Haha, exactly what I did, but then I got a nice long email the next morning! … sigh…

 

[HomeschoolDad]

I was giving directions to a very religious TLM catholic, and said “turn left at the church”. They corrected me, saying “the ‘so-called’ church?”. I thought this was a little bit rude / unnecessary / offputting, but that aside, were they correct? I realize that these churches are not part of “the Church”, but is the word “church” itself reserved for Catholics? Not sure where to go on this one…

I love this kind of precision. I would quibble about the PNCC and Old Catholics, in that they are not of apostolic origin (valid orders, yes, existed from the beginning, no), but aside from that, right on the money.

However, in keeping with common usage, and as a courtesy, I would use the term “church” in the same way the larger society does. For the same reasons, I refer to a non-Catholic clergy member as “Reverend” or “Father”. The hatred and animosity we would garner from telling them, in effect, “you’re not real churches and your ministers aren’t real clergy”, would far outweigh any advantage that might be gained from speaking the bald, blunt truth.

Though I don’t like it, that is also why I refer to, let’s say, Mrs Smith who has divorced Mr Smith and married Mr Jones illictly and invalidly as “Mrs Jones”. For one thing, legally, that’s what she is. I would also use requested pronouns for those who have either had a medical intervention to attempt to change their gender, or who simply identify as such-and-such while still having the anatomy of the undesired gender. Some also use neutral pronouns such as “they, them, their”, some concoction such as “ze, zim, zir”, or whatever. I once watched a radical feminist professor tie her tongue into little knots to keep from using the pronouns “she” and “her”. Thankfully she’s retired now.

Crazy world we live in…

 

[TC3033]

I guess I probably would have responded to the message letting the person know to no longer attempt to engage me on the subject…

I’m a non-Catholic in a 95% Catholic family, so I’m in a bit of a different boat, but that’s pretty much how I would have handled it.

 

[acanonlawyer]

I know of no official statement from the Catholic Church that defines what buildings can be referred to as a “church.” Personally, if I am speaking formally, I’ll not refer to “the Lutheran Church” since (as noted) that is not a “Church.” Nevertheless, I have no qualms about saying, e.g., “the grocery store is across the street from the Lutheran church.”

In discussion, I would maintain this distinction. If the other person disagreed with the distinction, so be it.

Dan

 

[Pitcairn17]

What would have made this person happy? “Turn left at the brick ecclesial community?” I know of traditionalists who refer to “Protestant temples,” but in my view such usage is offensive to Jewish congregations who have a historic claim on that term.

 

[phil19034]

p.s. Any advice how to best respond? This is a close family member. And I’m Catholic too, just a little less… ummm… “militant” ?

First - you need to accept the fact that the person you were talking to is 100% correct. They might be a little too militant, but they are not technically wrong.

I think @acanonlawyer has the best answer to your follow-up question. Read his answer and act accordingly.

Can a protestant church be called a church? Non-Catholic Religions

I know of no official statement from the Catholic Church that defines what buildings can be referred to as a “church.” Personally, if I am speaking formally, I’ll not refer to “the Lutheran Church” since (as noted) that is not a “Church.” Nevertheless, I have no qualms about saying, e.g., “the grocery store is across the street from the Lutheran church.” In discussion, I would maintain this distinction. If the other person disagreed with the distinction, so be it. Dan

God Bless

 

[CathoRick]

Whenever a Catholic mentions a church to me, he’ll usually say the name of the church (e.g. “Turn right at St. Mary’s”) if it’s Catholic, but be more vague if it’s non-Catholic. If I heard “left at the church”, I’d assume the church you’re referring to is Protestant.

Of course, whether it’s appropriate for us to refer to them as “churches”, even informally, is debatable.

 

[phil19034]

What would have made this person happy? “Turn left at the brick ecclesial community?” I know of traditionalists who refer to “Protestant temples,” but in my view such usage is offensive to Jewish congregations who have a historic claim on that term.

Just as an FYI - what you say regarding “temple” is not entirely true (well, maybe true in English, but not true in other languages).

In Spanish (especially in Puerto Rico, for example) the “templo” (aka temple) is the main Church in the parish. In Puerto Rico many (not all) parishes have multiple Church buildings. So one is the main parish church (aka the Temple - “templo” in spanish) while the others are Chapels (aka “capilla” in spanish).

God Bless

 

[Dovekin]

This has been a problem for many years. The Yearbook of American and Canadian Churches has had complaints for 100 years from groups who do not consider themselves to be “churches” though they are fully analogous to what others call churches. Other reference books gave up and used “denominations” instead of Churches to avoid the conflicts about ecclesiologies.

That is the issue with religious organizations. Buildings, on the other hand, can be called churches with fewer problems. They are places where Christians gather to worship.

As to your relative, he will have a hard time following directions if people are not allowed to describe landmarks. Perhaps you could recommend that he get a gps system if he will not allow people to help him find his way.

 

[1ke]

I was giving directions to a very religious TLM catholic, and said “turn left at the church”.

That would be correct, it’s a church building. Not a mosque or a synagogue or a temple, it’s a church.

They corrected me, saying “the ‘so-called’ church?”.

That’s pretty rude.

were they correct?

The Catholic Church would call those groups with valid holy orders and bishops Churches. We would call groups that lack valid orders ecclesial communions.

But a building would be properly called a church, little c.

 

[1ke]

I should have added that in the ensuing conversation they insisted that it is absolutely immoral to call it something it’s not.

I think I would distance myself from this individual.

 

[mabu]

I’m not going to cut ties with my parents over a pedantic squabble