Can a protestant church be called a church?

[De_Maria]

I don’t know of any protestant at all who makes that claim. The word ONLY may be the key word. Most Evangelicals understand that the Church is both a living organism as well as a body of order. I don’t know of any who say otherwise.

Hm?

From a purportedly Evangelical website:

May '12
Church includes anything and anybody from a building to the Vatican, from a minister to a pope, a pastor to a priest, an evangelical to a scientologist.

Church is derived from kurios, which means Lord, and led to k-ir-k and to ch-ur-ch. However, church cannot be derived from Ekklesia.

Ekklesia comes from ek and kaleo. Kaleo means to “call out” and ek means “out” in the sense of “away” and “from”.

I, therefore, argue that “church” is a bad translation of “ekklesia” and that, as a result of this erroneous translation, the whole concept of “church” is not a New Testament concept so that whatever we understand by “church” today has no Scriptural warrant whatsoever.

“Ekklesia” gives us the concept of “those who have been called out” or “gatherings of those called out by God through the Truth of the Word of the Gospel”.

That’s just an excerpt to be found here.

I also want to note that you seemingly use the words, protestant and evangelical, interchangeably, above. Whereas, I’ve frequently been chastised for doing the same. Not complaining. Just highlighting it for the readers.

 

[tgGodsway]

Let me study this for a while. Who is it you are sitting here?

 

[De_Maria]

De_Maria:

That makes sense. They probably wouldn’t bring it up, with you. But, I go out of my way to talk to Protestants who can be described as anti-Catholic. And I debate with them about every topic where they disagree with Catholic Teaching. The topic of the True Church and the visible Church frequently comes up. This particular question falls within that topic very frequently.

Yes I hear you but where I come from, we don’t even use these terms. My brothers and sisters in Christ have no protest to offer you. But I guess that’s because there isn’t anyone trying to impose upon them with the Catholic way.

Actually, I debate with them because they are trying to impose their Protestant way.

I imagine if this was the case, you’d get a protest out of them, at least from those who even know anything about the protestant reformation in the first place.
I’ve never personally met an anti-Catholic protestant. I am amazed at such a thought.

We have vastly different experiences. Most Protestants that I’ve met are anti-Catholic.

 

[De_Maria]

Let me study this for a while. Who is it you are sitting here?

Is that a typo? What does “Who is it you are sitting here?” mean?

If you’re asking who it is on the link I posted, it is merely a random website proving that some Evangelicals oppose the use of the word “church”. Something which you claimed that Evangelicals do not do.

 

[Tommy999]

Perhaps you’ve met mainly anti-Catholic Protestants because you admittedly go out of your way to seek them out, as you recently stated in one of your last posts. I suspect that many of us non-Catholic Christians are on CAF precisely because we are not anti-Catholic by default and want to learn more about Catholicism and compare and contrast it with our own faith, although I can’t presume to speak for all Protestants and why the came to CAF.

 

[De_Maria]

I suspect that many of us non-Catholic Christians are on CAF precisely because we are not anti-Catholic by default and want to learn more about Catholicism and compare and contrast it with our own faith,

Nothing wrong with that.

 

[Aquinas11]

Lutheran churches

Roman Catholic Church

Note the capitalization of Church is only for Catholic Church in that quote

 

[De_Maria]

JulianN:

Lutheran churches

Roman Catholic Church

Note the capitalization of Church is only for Catholic Church in that quote

Nor is the Joint Declaration making a reference to buildings. It’s a reference to the subscribing Lutheran communions, such as the ELCA or LCMS. This thread is about whether a protestant building, literally a landmark, can properly be called a “church”.

I was giving directions to a very religious TLM catholic, and said “turn left at the church”. They corrected me, saying “the ‘so-called’ church?”.

 

[TC3033]

many Protestants don’t even consider the buildings in which they gather, to be churches.

The what now? That’s a new one to me, I don’t know any non-Catholic Christians who don’t think where they worship is a church.

 

[JulianN]

Note the capitalization of Church is only for Catholic Church in that quote

That wasn’t really the discussion—it’s about the use of the word.

 

[RomanCath0lic]

No. Here in Brazil we have many “churches” that look like garages. Only the Catholic Church can be called church.

 

[JulianN]

. This thread is about whether a protestant building, literally a landmark, can properly be called a “church”.

So the ecclesial community can be called a church, as indicated by this document, but not the building?

 

[De_Maria]

So the ecclesial community can be called a church, as indicated by this document, but not the building?

That’s not the topic of this conversation.

But, if you want to drift, I also don’t call their communities, churches. Again, I do so in respect of their own preferences. Many Protestants reject the use of the word “church” based upon the fact that, in the NT Scriptures, it does not literally translate from “ecclesia”.

You see, the word “church” is an English language accretion. I know that in Spanish, we speak of “iglesias”. That is the direct and literal translation of the word, ecclesia. The called out. But, in English, the word “church” or “house of the Lord” is used in place of ecclesia. Example:

Matthew 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Mateo 16:18 Y yo también te digo, que tú eres Pedro,[a] y sobre esta roca edificaré mi iglesia; y las puertas del Hades no prevalecerán contra ella.

It’s basically a problem for English speaking Protestants.

For an example of an Evangelical who makes this objection, see the link I provided in this post.

 

[JulianN]

That’s not the topic of this conversation.

But yet, that was the reason given to the original questioner about why the church buildings might not be called churches. So really not a drift—it is the topic.

If the community of people who worship there can be called a church by the Catholic Church, then it’s perfectly reasonable to call the building that —what with its sign out front and all.

 

[De_Maria]

De_Maria:

That’s not the topic of this conversation.

But yet, that was the reason given to the original questioner about why the church buildings might not be called churches. So really not a drift—it is the topic.

It is a drift. The fact that someone gave that reason earlier in the conversation means that they simply addressed a question which was not asked.

If the community of people who worship there can be called a church by the Catholic Church, then it’s perfectly reasonable to call the building that —what with its sign out front and all.

As I said to someone earlier, you can call a chicken a duck, if you want to. But that doesn’t mean its not a misnomer. Protestant gatherings remain “so-called” churches and many Protestants agree with that analysis and argue that it is wrong to call ecclesial groups, churches.

Here’s another excerpt from another non-Catholic group.

Let us make it clear from the very beginning that the established religious system, which manifests itself in the abomination called “church”, is NOT of God. We intend to make it very clear, by studying the Greek words found in the New Testament, that the pattern which God intends His people to follow and live by is the ECCLESIA system, and is RADICALLY different than that which calls itself “church” in our day.
http://www.aggressivechristianity.net/articles/ecclesia.htm

So, there you go. Apparently, you want to disregard this Protestant opinion. I don’t.

 

[TC3033]

Many Protestants reject the use of the word “church”

Can you define “many”…or maybe who? As a non-Catholic Christian I’ve never heard of this so I’m a bit surprised. I’ve never heard of non-Catholic Christians not regard their building as a church.

 

[JulianN]

So, there you go. Apparently, you want to disregard this Protestant opinion. I don’t.

I guess I’m going to stick with the Catholic opinion.

But as an aside, you are painting Protestantism with a very narrow brush. This may be the opinion of some Evangelicals, but I have yet to meet a member of a mainline denomination who did not describe their building of worship as a church. A quick look at the signs out front would serve as evidence.

 

[tgGodsway]

Actually, I debate with them because they are trying to impose their Protestant way.

Well this is ironic. Three years ago I was channel surfing on the AM dial of my car radio and came across a Catholic radio station. I was intrigued. I ended up listening for about three weeks. Long story short, the things I was hearing on this radio station prompted me to find a Catholic forum, where I ended up finding this one. I was amazed because realizing for the very first time in over 30 years as a Christian, that the protestant reformation is still alive and well, at least in the minds of the Catholics. Conversing about Catholic v’s Protestant has never been my experience any Church I’ve attended.

Even now if I bring it up among my peers, they look at me like deer in the headlights. When I set a user name on this site and began to navigate it, I began to hear, again, all of the denouncements of anything not Catholic. This site is all about minimizing any form of Christianity not Catholic.

I am amazed that your experience is the same, except in the exact opposite. I do not doubt you when you say “protestant sites” also bash Catholics. This too breaks my heart.

 

[De_Maria]

I guess I’m going to stick with the Catholic opinion.

With one Catholic opinion. As shown, there are Catholics who hold the opposite view.

But as an aside, you are painting Protestantism with a very narrow brush. This may be the opinion of some Evangelicals, but I have yet to meet a member of a mainline denomination who did not describe their building of worship as a church.

I didn’t say that all Protestants held this view.

A quick look at the signs out front would serve as evidence.

True. But that may change, since it is a fairly new trend. I remember a time when Protestants embraced “religion”. But now a large number of them claim that religion is bad. So, as someone on this thread said earlier, “Protestants are somewhat motley”. So, there is no telling what they believe.

 

[Magistos]

And, also, why many Protestants don’t even consider the buildings in which they gather, to be churches.

That’s news to me, speaking from my own experience as a Protestant (Though I don’t like that word. I’m not protesting anything, and I think a lot of “protestants” would feel the same - not all though, obviously). I think the metaphors are getting mixed. Protestants like to reinforce that the Church (big c) is the people - don’t get hung up on the buildings, the trappings, a place, etc. The Church, is the body of believers. The building is certainly A small c church - place of worship. - and depending on the particular denomination may hold greater or lesser reverence value.

Now, as to the way back original point of the post, yes, giving the Catholic interpretation, it WOULD be technically correct to say that the Catholic church sees protestant denominations as ecclesial communities, not as churches. It’s not exactly charitable to bring that up in casual conversation, especially when there is NO WAY the two sides could agree. But, there you go.