Can a Protestant Explain This to Me?

[BernadetteM]

Most Protestants, except for some Episcopalians/Anglicans) don’t believe in the Communion of Saints. They tell us that we are communicating with the dead and that the Saints are dead and can’t hear us.

My question is in the past I have had two different fundamentalist protestants tell me experiences in their lives that they accept as from God.

The first one was a friend whose brother needed transplants or he would die shortly. After his father died, within two months her brother received two transplants. Her family attributed this to the prayers of her father now that he was in heaven. If that isn’t what Catholics would describe as believing in the Communion of Saints I don’t know what you would call it.

Just a couple of months ago my friends husband died unexpectantly. Her friend called her and told her she had a vision of the husband riding in a chariot and light was all around him. He told her that he was watching over my friend and her family. Now both of these fundamentalist that reject that we can ask Saints and our loved ones to pray for us once they have died believe that their loved ones were able to help them and also communicate with them.

I just wondered how protestants who condemn us for asking for prayers of the Saints can accept that not only has the one’s father helped him to get the transplants, but another actually heard the departed husband speak to her and saw him, can explain this contradiction in their beliefs. I just listen and never mention that this is what the Communion of Saints is, because they would deny it.

The one thing about my friend’s church whose husband died is that she now blames herself as her faith wasn’t strong enough. This is another teaching of theirs. She is very depressed as it is and feeling that it was her fault is a shame. One of her pastors told her that Satan took her husband. I do have to wonder about some of these churches and the guilt they place on their flock.

Many also believe that God speaks to them directly, which I can accept, but not daily or weekly as some attest to.

Yours in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary

Bernadette

 

[napoli426]

hmmm…

 

[Mosacked]

Most Protestants, except for some Episcopalians/Anglicans) don’t believe in the Communion of Saints. They tell us that we are communicating with the dead and that the Saints are dead and can’t hear us.

My question is in the past I have had two different fundamentalist protestants tell me experiences in their lives that they accept as from God.

The first one was a friend whose brother needed transplants or he would die shortly. After his father died, within two months her brother received two transplants. Her family attributed this to the prayers of her father now that he was in heaven. If that isn’t what Catholics would describe as believing in the Communion of Saints I don’t know what you would call it.

Just a couple of months ago my friends husband died unexpectantly. Her friend called her and told her she had a vision of the husband riding in a chariot and light was all around him. He told her that he was watching over my friend and her family. Now both of these fundamentalist that reject that we can ask Saints and our loved ones to pray for us once they have died believe that their loved ones were able to help them and also communicate with them.

I just wondered how protestants who condemn us for asking for prayers of the Saints can accept that not only has the one’s father helped him to get the transplants, but another actually heard the departed husband speak to her and saw him, can explain this contradiction in their beliefs. I just listen and never mention that this is what the Communion of Saints is, because they would deny it.

The one thing about my friend’s church whose husband died is that she now blames herself as her faith wasn’t strong enough. This is another teaching of theirs. She is very depressed as it is and feeling that it was her fault is a shame. One of her pastors told her that Satan took her husband. I do have to wonder about some of these churches and the guilt they place on their flock.

Many also believe that God speaks to them directly, which I can accept, but not daily or weekly as some attest to.

Yours in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary

Bernadette

Believing that the dead lingers on is not the same as praying to them or asking them to pray for us.

I do not see the logic of your question.

I may know that you are in the school, but that doesn’t mean I should pass my report card through you when it is addressed to the principal who by the way, is beckoning to me at the window and I have LEGS to walk with and hands to hold the card too.

 

[Lutheranteach]

I’ve rarely gone to a funeral where once everyone got back to the house, etc. someone didn’t say, “I bet so and so is looking down right now…” It’s a comforting thought to those in mourning, perhaps, but it’s not happening. I can’t blame anyone for the confusion as it’s something we all say, but at the heart of it, in protestant theology, it’s not what we really believe.

youtube.com/watch?v=n2FOGZ_X_cw&feature=related

 

[JRKH]

I’ve rarely gone to a funeral where once everyone got back to the house, etc. someone didn’t say, “I bet so and so is looking down right now…” It’s a comforting thought to those in mourning, perhaps, but it’s not happening. I can’t blame anyone for the confusion as it’s something we all say, but at the heart of it, in protestant theology, it’s not what we really believe.

youtube.com/watch?v=n2FOGZ_X_cw&feature=related

Interesting link, but I can’t say I was overly impressed. This person is taking a passage from the OT and applying it to the new covenent. Things have changed since Isaiah wrote that verse.
Christ has come, Reopened the gates of heaven and taken the saints to Heaven with Him.
Christ Himself said: ‘I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not God of the dead, but of the living." (Mt 22:32)
Is Jesus contradicting Isaiah?

May I ask a couple of questions here??
From the Lutheran perspective,
When a person dies - passes from this world - are they immediately Judged and consigned to either heaven or hell?
If so then are the souls sent to hell “asleep” in their torment?
If so then are the souls in heaven “asleep” before the throne of God??

 

[Edwardjohn]

I’ve rarely gone to a funeral where once everyone got back to the house, etc. someone didn’t say, “I bet so and so is looking down right now…” It’s a comforting thought to those in mourning, perhaps, but it’s not happening. I can’t blame anyone for the confusion as it’s something we all say, but at the heart of it, in protestant theology, it’s not what we really believe.

youtube.com/watch?v=n2FOGZ_X_cw&feature=related

What is that “cloud of witnesses” referred to in Hebrews 12:1 that we “are surrounded by?” And isn’t a witness someone who “sees, hears, or knows by personal presence and experience?” I’m of the opinion that the faithful who have departed have a pretty good view.

 

[BernadetteM]

Believing that the dead lingers on is not the same as praying to them or asking them to pray for us.

I do not see the logic of your question.

I may know that you are in the school, but that doesn’t mean I should pass my report card through you when it is addressed to the principal who by the way, is beckoning to me at the window and I have LEGS to walk with and hands to hold the card too.

My friend who lost her father prayed that her father would help her brother get the transplants, her other family members did the same.

Whether these instances are in line with your faith or not, both of my friends believe that their loved ones in some way knew what was happening in their lives and God used them to bring healing of one kind or another to them.

I am so glad to believe that there is life after death as is taught by Jesus and the bible.

I think that until a death that is very personal to you happens the Communion of Saints might not seem a reality, but when your lives are touched with it, then many do believe that although the body has left this world the soul is alive and is still watching over them.

God Bless

Bernadette

 

[BernadetteM]

I’ve rarely gone to a funeral where once everyone got back to the house, etc. someone didn’t say, “I bet so and so is looking down right now…” It’s a comforting thought to those in mourning, perhaps, but it’s not happening. I can’t blame anyone for the confusion as it’s something we all say, but at the heart of it, in protestant theology, it’s not what we really believe.

youtube.com/watch?v=n2FOGZ_X_cw&feature=related

It was not the way you said it. They are both strict fundamentalists, yet now believe that their lost ones are watching over them and that God has allowed both a physical healing through their prayers or an emotioinal healilng knowing that their loved one is watching over them.

You cannot say that you know that “it’s not happening”. Just because that is your belief, does not make it true. I have no problem with you believing whatever you want, but feel a little sad at the same time that you don’t have the comfort we Catholics and Orthodox have that when we die our souls are with God and that they are part of the Great Cloud of Witnesses around His throne praying for us.

God Bless

Bernadette

 

[Lutheranteach]

The particular pastor there is espousing a missouri synod view and not one I entirely am in agreement with, nor have to be. I did want to just give some info to the OP. But I do not think grandpa is up in heaven trying to give me any assistance…and even if he could, he would say the same thing he did when he was alive: Figure it out yourself you little pain in the —*

 

[Lampo]

The particular pastor there is espousing a missouri synod view and not one I entirely am in agreement with, nor have to be.

Which one of you is right? If Martin Luther were alive today, would he be and ELCA Lutheran or a Missouri Synod Lutheran?

 

[mariahloves]

My only problem with believing in the communion of Saints (which I want to) is that I thought there would be no pain in heaven, but how could that be if for instance, the Virgin Mary sees some of her children starving, dying of disease, experiencing emotional trauma, being abused etc. and be happy? That doesn’t make sense to me

 

[Edwardjohn]

My only problem with believing in the communion of Saints (which I want to) is that I thought there would be no pain in heaven, but how could that be if for instance, the Virgin Mary sees some of her children starving, dying of disease, experiencing emotional trauma, being abused etc. and be happy? That doesn’t make sense to me

Whoa! Why’d ya have to go and say that? Now I’ve got something else to wonder about.
Good question! Somebody, please?

 

[kristanl]

Whoa! Why’d ya have to go and say that? Now I’ve got something else to wonder about.
Good question! Somebody, please?

There will continue to be suffering in this world as long as their is sin. Jesus cannot help everyone from pain and suffering, as sometimes it takes their pain and suffering for others to see what their sin is doing, and hopefully try to help more.

 

[Third_Day]

My only problem with believing in the communion of Saints (which I want to) is that I thought there would be no pain in heaven, but how could that be if for instance, the Virgin Mary sees some of her children starving, dying of disease, experiencing emotional trauma, being abused etc. and be happy? That doesn’t make sense to me

Mary would know that it is through suffering in this life that we can become sanctified. She knows that we are only pilgrims on this earth. Our true home is in heaven. As St. Paul said " Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake" Col. 1:24

 

[TriuneUnity]

Most Protestants, except for some Episcopalians/Anglicans) don’t believe in the Communion of Saints. They tell us that we are communicating with the dead and that the Saints are dead and can’t hear us.

I would agree with the statement that the dead cannot hear us. At least not in the manner of an invocation. That is not to say, however, that they are not aware of the trevails of the Church militant. I am sure that they pray ceaselessly for the Church on earth and it would be entirely appropriate to ask God to answer their prayers.

 

[Joshua27]

My only problem with believing in the communion of Saints (which I want to) is that I thought there would be no pain in heaven, but how could that be if for instance, the Virgin Mary sees some of her children starving, dying of disease, experiencing emotional trauma, being abused etc. and be happy? That doesn’t make sense to me

Mary would know that it is through suffering in this life that we can become sanctified. She knows that we are only pilgrims on this earth. Our true home is in heaven. As St. Paul said " Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake" Col. 1:24

Will all due respect to the memory of all those (loved ones) who have passed, has anyone noticed that the distance between us and God grows wider and wider with each death every generation since the death of Christ?

Recall that during the passion - upon Christ’s moment of death - the veil of the temple split from top to bottom.

What exactly was this veil supposed to signify?

Well to understand the “split”, we need to understand why the veil was there in the first place: (short answer) God was too holy to be seen or one risked instant irradication because Israel was unholy.

Why is this important?

Prior to Christ’s death, only one selected individual (High Priest) was charged with “interceding” for the prayers and sins of the people. No one else was counted “worthy” to attonement for their sins or another’s. Even still, the High Priest (himself) could not venture past the veil on any day other than one special day (the day of attonement)…And if that wasn’t enough, an animal sacrifice was required to “cover” the High Priest with “innocent life”, and incense was required to obscure the “holy of holies” throne room with smoke to hide God’s face (or the Priest would’ve died instantly).

Note that there was an obstacle; a Barrier between God and his children because of sin, thus there was a lengthy channel to get to God.

[Research Israelite’s “Tabernacle of Testimony” instructed by God to Moses during the 40-years in the wilderness for a more detailed description of the tabernacle.]

Again, Christ’s death not only split the veil between the “holy of holies” throne room and the outer tabernacle, but Christ’s blood covers God’s children perpetually which meant “no more sacrifices required”. Also, Christ prayed that all would be one even as He and God are one. Finally, Paul said that “don’t ye know that you are the temple/tabernacle of the holy spirit?”

So what does all of this mean for us today?

There was not supposed to be a barrier anymore; no obstacle between God and his children anymore…there was to be a “direct channel” established between God and his children as His children were to become the living tabernacles (dwelling places/Mansions) for God, holy and acceptable for use…and yet since after (approx) the first century, more and more obstacles have found position between us and God as generations come to pass.

In Death: loved ones, family members, saints, patriarchs/matriarch are wedged between our prayers to God…

In Life: Denominations, Pastors, Deacons, Brothers, Sisters, Priests/Fathers, Archbishops, Cardinals, Father of Fathers (Popes) are treated as the hierarchy/ladder we must climb…just to get closer to God.

---

And again, I do not dishonor yours, your friend’s, or my dead family’s memories, however…

---

Another word about the construction of the tabernacle of the Israelites; All around the encampment of the tabernacle there was a high fence that stretched around the entire camp, with only one opening; one archway. There was only one way into or out of the tabernacle of God…just one.

Recall that “there is only one way to the Father”, Christ. Because - surely - king David or even Moses can easily be considered “passed” Saints of God (during Christ’s time), and yet Christ does not mention them even once for prayer (not normally or for specific situations), when He taught his disciples how to pray.

All prayer is like sweet incense that rises from the altar to God. It is His pleasure alone to receive them, and no one elses. And yet we deny much of that pleasure to God by offering prayers to others.

Also, if we say that saints and loved ones are “alive” as “spirits”, couldn’t the process of “communing with saints” and loved ones be easily reworded as “communing with spirits”? And isn’t communing with spirits considered sorcery and divination; both of which are considered abominations to God?

 

[JRKH]

Mary would know that it is through suffering in this life that we can become sanctified. She knows that we are only pilgrims on this earth. Our true home is in heaven. As St. Paul said " Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake" Col. 1:24

This is a good answer.
The Will of those in Heaven are completely and perfectly aligned with the Will of God. They cannot desire what God does not desire.
The Saints see the suffering but also see something we do not. The Good that comes from the suffering, the higher purpose in the suffering. Far from making them unhappy, it makes them rejoice to see us strengthened in our faith.

Peace
James

 

[Third_Day]

=

Joshua27;6507914]Will all due respect to the memory of all those (loved ones) who have passed, has anyone noticed that the distance between us and God grows wider and wider with each death every generation since the death of Christ?

The distance between us and God has not grow wider with each generation. Why would it? God is outside of time. Everything is in the present.

**So what does all of this mean for us today?**There was not supposed to be a barrier anymore; no obstacle between God and his children anymore

.
I agree with everthing you just posted. However, there is no barrier between us and God

…there was to be a “direct channel” established between God and his children as His children were to become the living tabernacles (dwelling places/Mansions) for God, holy and acceptable for use

…
Agree

and yet since after (approx) the first century, more and more obstacles have found position between us and God as generations come to pass.
In Death: loved ones, family members, saints, patriarchs/matriarch are wedged between our prayers to God…

There are no obstacles. " For I am sure that neither death, nor life, nor angels…will be able to separate us from the love of God" Romans 8:37

In Life: Denominations, Pastors, Deacons, Brothers, Sisters, Priests/Fathers, Archbishops, Cardinals, Father of Fathers (Popes) are treated as the hierarchy/ladder we must climb…just to get closer to God.

How are these obstacles?. They were established by God. “And his gifts are that some should be aposltes, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers…for the building up of the body of Christ” Eph. 4:11​

Recall that “there is only one way to the Father”, Christ. Because - surely - king David or even Moses can easily be considered “passed” Saints of God (during Christ’s time), and yet Christ does not mention them even once for prayer (not normally or for specific situations), when He taught his disciples how to pray.

Moses and David and all the old testaments saints were not yet in heaven. They were in the spirit prison that Peter tells us about 1 Peter3:19

All prayer is like sweet incense that rises from the altar to God. It is His pleasure alone to receive them, and no one elses. And yet we deny much of that pleasure to God by offering prayers to others.

What does John see in heaven? He sees the prayers of the saints being taken up to God “like incense” Rev.5:8 and Rev 8:3-4

Also, if we say that saints and loved ones are “alive” as “spirits”, couldn’t the process of “communing with saints” and loved ones be easily reworded as “communing with spirits”?

Communing with spirits means that we expect the spirit to do something with their own power. A saint in heaven has no power of their own. Their ability to intercede for us comes from Christ.

And isn’t communing with spirits considered sorcery and divination; both of which are considered abominations to God?

Yes. When we expect the spirit to do something by way of their own power. This is not what the communion of saints is about. The saint simply asks God, on our behalf, to grant our request. It is not the saint that is granting the request, it is God.

 

[Daedelus76]

I’ve rarely gone to a funeral where once everyone got back to the house, etc. someone didn’t say, “I bet so and so is looking down right now…” It’s a comforting thought to those in mourning, perhaps, but it’s not happening. I can’t blame anyone for the confusion as it’s something we all say, but at the heart of it, in protestant theology, it’s not what we really believe.

At least among broad/high church Anglicans, even Methodists, this isn’t the belief- it isn’t necessarily just a “comforting thought”. In the patristics, also, St. Jerome says the blessed dead, like Christ, are omnipresent, since it’s only fitting the saints would be with Christ. Indeed, in James the author talks about a “cloud of wittnesses” of the saints who have passed on before us.

People can pray, it doesn’t mean that it will be answered, and to my knowledge belief in the intercessions of the saints doesn’t necessarily have any ties to any particular metaphysical beliefs about “how” that happens.

Some of the reformers like Ridley or Calvin had very erroneous ideas about “where” heaven was, they thought about things in terms of spatial extension of substances, hence why Ridley denied the presence of Christ in the Eucharist. Luther at least grasped that Christ could be “ubiquitous”, which is closer to the acient belief. The loss of analogical religious understanding in the late middle ages was to blame. Heaven is not “up” or a place in the usual sense, just like the idea of “God being outside the universe” is also erroneous.

 

[who0Oshhh]

Now both of these fundamentalist that reject that we can ask Saints and our loved ones to pray for us once they have died believe that their loved ones were able to help them and also communicate with them.

Are you sure they reject that? Because from what you described, they basically said their loved ones are able to watch over them and pray on their behalf. That’s not something I would say, but they do.

I just wondered how protestants who condemn us for asking for prayers of the Saints can accept that not only has the one’s father helped him to get the transplants, but another actually heard the departed husband speak to her and saw him, can explain this contradiction in their beliefs. I just listen and never mention that this is what the Communion of Saints is, because they would deny it.

They deny it? My initial reaction is “Apparently not.” My next thought is “Hey, did you ask them?” You don’t know until you ask, right?

The one thing about my friend’s church whose husband died is that she now blames herself as her faith wasn’t strong enough. This is another teaching of theirs.

Are you sure that’s what her church teaches? I mean, they could. It’s possible. But it’s also possible that your friend continues to believe some things that are held over from something in her past.

Did she grow up fundamentalist? If so, she may have picked up some stuff from other places. If not, she was probably involved in something(s) other than fundamentalism that she drifted out of more or less amicably, and then she wound up in fundamentalism but held onto some of the other stuff too.

Do you know her parents? That could explain some of this, too. It could be that her parents practiced something other than fundamentalism, and while she didn’t wind up landing in the same place as them, some of the individual beliefs within the system got passed down to her because they’re her parents.

I don’t know if I’m any more capable of telling you “why this is” than a Catholic would be. The thing you probably need to do (if you really want to know) is just talk to your friends and say, “Hey, this is what you believe. Why do you believe that?” I’m sure they’ll tell you.