Can a protestant tell me what this is from and what its talking about

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III. Nevertheless, they may, through the temptations of Satan and of the world, the prevalency of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of the means of their preservation, fall into grievous sins; and, for a time, continue therein: whereby they incur God’s displeasure, and grieve His Holy Spirit, come to be deprived of some measure of their graces and comforts, have their hearts hardened, and their consciences wounded; hurt and scandalize others, and bring temporal judgments upon themselves

Cant wait to hear your thoughts
 
It’s from the Westminster Confession, chapter 16, I think? About how the faithful can’t ever lose their salvation. Someone else has more information, I’m sure.
 
This sounds like some sort of setup. Do you really think so little of the various Protestants? Just curious. 🤷
 
ignatius777 said:
III. Nevertheless, they may, through the temptations of Satan and of the world, the prevalency of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of the means of their preservation, fall into grievous sins; and, for a time, continue therein: whereby they incur God’s displeasure, and grieve His Holy Spirit, come to be deprived of some measure of their graces and comforts, have their hearts hardened, and their consciences wounded; hurt and scandalize others, and bring temporal judgments upon themselves

Cant wait to hear your thoughts
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Westminster Catechism, chapter XVII, Of the Perseverance of the Saints.

The preceding paragraphs read as follows.

I. They, whom God has accepted in His Beloved, effectually called, and sanctified by His Spirit, can neither totally nor finally fall away from the state of grace, but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved.

II. This perseverance of the saints depends not upon their own free will, but upon the immutability of the decree of election, flowing from the free and unchangeable love of God the Father; upon the efficacy of the merit and intercession of Jesus Christ, the abiding of the Spirit, and of the seed of God within them, and the nature of the covenant of grace: from all which arises also the certainty and infallibility thereof.

But you already knew that. Now that you’ve summoned the Protestants, what is your reason for doing so?
 
It’s very similar to Part V of the Baptist Faith and Message, which is the Southern Baptist statement of faith.
V. God’s Purpose of Grace
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Election is the gracious purpose of God, according to which He regenerates, justifies, sanctifies, and glorifies sinners. It is consistent with the free agency of man, and comprehends all the means in connection with the end. It is the glorious display of God’s sovereign goodness, and is infinitely wise, holy, and unchangeable. It excludes boasting and promotes humility.
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All true believers endure to the end. Those whom God has accepted in Christ, and sanctified by His Spirit, will never fall away from the state of grace, but shall persevere to the end. Believers may fall into sin through neglect and temptation, whereby they grieve the Spirit, impair their graces and comforts, and bring reproach on the cause of Christ and temporal judgments on themselves; yet they shall be kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation.
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Something I’ve never understood about this, what is the difference between a believer and a “true believer”? Should this be taken to mean that believers don’t endure to the end? Or do we have false believers? I just don’t understand .why they inserted the word “true” in there, it seems redundant.

Ignatius 777, this emphasizes the Calvinistic doctrine of perseverence of the saints and its Baptist corollary, eternal security of the believer (a/k/a OSAS).
 
amerrychase said:
It’s from the Westminster Confession, chapter 16, I think? About how the faithful can’t ever lose their salvation. Someone else has more information, I’m sure.
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Its actually chapter 17 of the Westminster Confession.
 
ignatius777 said:
III. Nevertheless, they may, through the temptations of Satan and of the world, the prevalency of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of the means of their preservation, fall into grievous sins; and, for a time, continue therein: whereby they incur God’s displeasure, and grieve His Holy Spirit, come to be deprived of some measure of their graces and comforts, have their hearts hardened, and their consciences wounded; hurt and scandalize others, and bring temporal judgments upon themselves

Cant wait to hear your thoughts
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For the record it doesnt appear to have anything to do with not be able to lose ones salvation, in fact it seems to say just the opposite.
 
Zenas said:
It’s very similar to Part V of the Baptist Faith and Message, which is the Southern Baptist statement of faith.
Something I’ve never understood about this, what is the difference between a believer and a “true believer”? Should this be taken to mean that believers don’t endure to the end? Or do we have false believers? I just don’t understand .why they inserted the word “true” in there, it seems redundant.

Ignatius 777, this emphasizes the Calvinistic doctrine of perseverence of the saints and its Baptist corollary, eternal security of the believer (a/k/a OSAS).
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This distinction emanates from Calvanism, and is found in all those ecclesial communities heavily influenced by Calvanism, such as Baptists.

Yes, they say that “true” believers are those that persevere, and anyone who thinks they believed, or acted like they believed, but falls away was never really saved in the first place (not a true believer). The rationale for his is that a “true believer” is preserved forever by God’s grace, and therefore, cannot fall away.

It is an insertion to clarify the scriptural record, which cannot be taken at face value in concert with the doctrine of eternal security. There has to be a way to explain away all the passages that indicate it is possible to fall away from the faith.
 
GeorgeTheWild said:
Then why did you ask if you already knew? It just makes you look like someone who is trying to start an argument not a discussion.
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Why? because I want to hear what protestants kow of their own history and to get their interpretation of this passage.
 
ignatius777 said:
For the record it doesnt appear to have anything to do with not be able to lose ones salvation, in fact it seems to say just the opposite.
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The key is the last five words that you reproduced in the O.P., “bring temporal judgments upon themselves”. Temporal punishment in this life is big in Protestant thought and that is what the confession is talking about. There is even some thinking that a person can be sufficiently reprobate that God will take him out of this life altogether, but not to Hell. Once you are saved, you are never again in danger of going to Hell.
 
Zenas said:
The key is the last five words that you reproduced in the O.P., “bring temporal judgments upon themselves”. Temporal punishment in this life is big in Protestant thought and that is what the confession is talking about. There is even some thinking that a person can be sufficiently reprobate that God will take him out of this life altogether, but not to Hell. Once you are saved, you are never again in danger of going to Hell.
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Maybe it even suggets purgatory ie: temporal punishment?
 
ignatius777 said:
Maybe it even suggets purgatory ie: temporal punishment?
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Protestants obviously don’t believe in purgatory. And while we do affirm that forgiven sin may yet result in temporal punishment for a number of reasons…

For our benefit, that one person or another may repent of sins, to grow in righteousness and holiness, to discourage repetition of sins, to keep us humble or strengthen us in faith…

We absolutely deny that temporal punishment awaits any believer in this life or the next that is vindictive, a restitution, or done for the payment of a divine debt.

Again, we do affirm that punishment can and does happen in this life that occurs for various teaching and/or preventative purposes. However, we deny that any Christian can or does undergo punishment for the purpose of making restitution for a divine debt that must be paid “before access can be opened to the kingdom of heaven.” This we do not do. Moreover, this is something we cannot do while affirming the major Solas.
 
ignatius777 said:
Maybe it even suggets purgatory ie: temporal punishment?
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Nope. It’s only up to and including death. Cooterhein did a good job of summing it up, although he will have a hard time finding scriptural support for it. So much for one of the five solas.
 
cooterhein said:
Protestants obviously don’t believe in purgatory. And while we do affirm that forgiven sin may yet result in temporal punishment for a number of reasons…

For our benefit, that one person or another may repent of sins, to grow in righteousness and holiness, to discourage repetition of sins, to keep us humble or strengthen us in faith…

We absolutely deny that temporal punishment awaits any believer in this life or the next that is vindictive, a restitution, or done for the payment of a divine debt.

Again, we do affirm that punishment can and does happen in this life that occurs for various teaching and/or preventative purposes. However, we deny that any Christian can or does undergo punishment for the purpose of making restitution for a divine debt that must be paid “before access can be opened to the kingdom of heaven.” This we do not do. Moreover, this is something we cannot do while affirming the major Solas.
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How can a protestant caim to believe in any type of temporal punishment if salvation can not be lost even if one doesnt want it anymore??? If there is nothing one can do to lose salvation and all sins past, present and future are forgiven by Jesus sacrifice thne what is the purpose of temporal punishment anywhere?
 
Zenas said:
Nope. It’s only up to and including death. Cooterhein did a good job of summing it up, although he will have a hard time finding scriptural support for it. So much for one of the five solas.
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The fact that the Westminster Confession even mentions “temporal punishment” suggest a deviation of modern protestants from their core beliefs. But I agree thete is no biblical evidence of sola fide or sola scripture and much more
 
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