Can a Roman Catholic become Ukrainian Catholic?

[5Loaves]

…Last Sunday, however, I had the life changing experience of attending the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom at the only Ukrainian Catholic Church in the city.

I’ve been reading up on the Divine Liturgy, Eastern Christianity, and even watching videos. But it’s nothing like actually being there. Since there are no serious theological repercussions in switching from Roman to Eastern, I want to become an Eastern Catholic.

Once I discovered the ECCs I never looked back. I’m still very active in the Latin Church via daily Masses and as a catechist, and my many dear friends there, and the wonderful clergy, but I can’t imagine life now without the Eastern Church and Orthodoxy. Others have already addressed the question of whether one formally seeks a change in canonical status to an Eastern Church.

At very least I am strongly considering it. Fasting… is kinda scary to me.

Don’t be scared of fasting. Start small and be faithful. It’s not about not eating. The more you can read and listen to teachings the less intimidating it will be. To add to what others have said, I didn’t see mention that the Nativity Fast is a much less strict fast than Great Lent. At least in the Russian Church, usually on the max end of fasting, we can have fish, wine and oil on weekends and some feast days, and oil and wine Tu/Th. Hubby and I are away for an anniversary and had fish last night, Feast of the Evangelist Matthew, and I plan to have fish on the Feast of St. Nicholas.

I’m so happy for you that you have access to an EC parish and that this speaks to you. Many people visit our parish and love the Divine Liturgy but it clearly is also just not for them in the way it is for us. They want to come from time to time but are most at home in the Roman Rite.

This week I’ll attend a Roman Catholic Church for Daily Mass and an Eastern Catholic Church for Divine Liturgy on Sunday. I’m blessed to live in an area with both Eastern and Western Catholicism.

Some of us are really blest this way! This past Sun. I was in my parish for DL and our agape meal, Mon. afternoon I was in the reverent Holy Mass (in Spanish) at the Dominican Priory. Left there to go to vigil at Russian Orthodox for the Nativity Fast. At such times I have to pinch myself.

I find it so interesting how perfectly the Liturgical year feeds us. A week or so ago I was really missing the Orthodox parish I go to for festal vigils and then I realized the Nativity Fast was about to begin and they would be having their vespers for that. There were only four of us there other than choir and clergy. We’re never left long between these special times in the year which so enrich our lives as Christians.

This chart helped me out a bit …
stjohnchrysostom.org/OurTraditions/Fasting.aspx

I’m still over on the left hand side.

Note that they are guidelines, not rules.

Thanks for that link.

Our deacon posted this on our parish e-list: Reflections in Christ by Fr. Stephen Freeman The Nativity Fast – Why We Fast. We really have rich resources when it comes to catechesis on fasting.

Fr. Stephen also has this same teaching as a podcast on Ancient Faith Radio, and on his blog site Glory to God for All Things.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Father Stephen has a wonderful recent blog post about Fasting. Must read for all Eastern Catholics and Orthodox!

fatherstephen.wordpress.com/2011/11/12/the-nativity-fast-why-we-fast-2/

 

[Symeon]

And like I say, I am kinda wary of the whole… fasting thing. I am under the understanding that there are at least two fasts: the Great Fast of Lent and the Fast of St. Phillip during Advent. I’ve never actually made much of an effort to fast in my practice. And I’m just a little… tense over the idea. I’m sure I’d come to appreciate the idea after a while, but right now I’m kinda like the kid who’s never jumped off of a diving board before. As a man who loves his food, I’m more than a little uneasy about that.

Fasting is something you definitely ease into, so don’t be anxious or worry that you would have to start fasting strictly from the beginning. You start with something simple you can handle and work your way up.

Remember fasting is not a form of self-punishment. It is (among other things) a way to remind ourselves of our dependency on God. It is a way to develop discipline and mastery over our passions.

There is a good article on fasting from an Eastern perspective here

(A priest’s blog).
fatherstephen.wordpress.com/

Talk to the priest at your Ukrainian parish about this.

As others have said, you don’t need to (at perhaps it wouldn’t be wise at this point) to start thinking of making a canonical change, having only been to one Divine Liturgy. Just start attending the Ukrainian parish and learn, experience, and live life as an Eastern Christian. Attend the DL on Sundays, feasts, and vespers if the parish has it. Get involved in parish activities as much as possible. Most eastern catholic parishes are like an extended family, and tend to be very welcoming. Possibly talk to the priest about your prayer life, fasting, etc… if you feel comfortable doing so.

 

[TarkanAttila]

Fasting is something you definitely ease into, so don’t be anxious or worry that you would have to start fasting strictly from the beginning. You start with something simple you can handle and work your way up.

Remember fasting is not a form of self-punishment. It is (among other things) a way to remind ourselves of our dependency on God. It is a way to develop discipline and mastery over our passions.

There is a good article on fasting from an Eastern perspective here

(A priest’s blog).
fatherstephen.wordpress.com/

Talk to the priest at your Ukrainian parish about this.

As others have said, you don’t need to (at perhaps it wouldn’t be wise at this point) to start thinking of making a canonical change, having only been to one Divine Liturgy. Just start attending the Ukrainian parish and learn, experience, and live life as an Eastern Christian. Attend the DL on Sundays, feasts, and vespers if the parish has it. Get involved in parish activities as much as possible. Most eastern catholic parishes are like an extended family, and tend to be very welcoming. Possibly talk to the priest about your prayer life, fasting, etc… if you feel comfortable doing so.

Thank you for that, Symeon. That website with the chart was also really helps.

Once I discovered the ECCs I never looked back. I’m still very active in the Latin Church via daily Masses and as a catechist, and my many dear friends there, and the wonderful clergy, but I can’t imagine life now without the Eastern Church and Orthodoxy. Others have already addressed the question of whether one formally seeks a change in canonical status to an Eastern Church.

I came up with a catchphrase for this phenomenon: “Once you go Byzantine, you never go back.”

A distaste for the name of Rome is, in my opinion, probably not healthy for any Catholic, West or East.

Don’t worry; I am still firmly loyal to Rome. I’m not gonna turn Traditional or anything like that. It’s just that the New Mass just isn’t as sweet to me as the Divine Liturgy, and the Roman Rite is not apparently as wonderful as the Eastern. I.e, the grass is always greener on the other side, amirite?

 

[Loved_Disciple]

As I understand it, you can only change rites once. If this needs correction or clarification, I hope someone will do so.

A Catholic, Western or Eastern, can attend a Catholic Church that is Roman Rite or Byzantine Rite or XYZ Rite in Communion with Rome – no change of rite is necessary. Many Eastern Catholics find it difficult, for example, to attend an ECC (due to location) so they end up attending an RCC. You don’t need permission (or a change in rite) to do so.

This week I’ll attend a Roman Catholic Church for Daily Mass and an Eastern Catholic Church for Divine Liturgy on Sunday. I’m blessed to live in an area with both Eastern and Western Catholicism.

As far as I am aware, this is an old rule that predates the Eastern Code of Canon Law and is no longer the case. Transfers are no long once a life, BUT it is still highly frowned upon to do so more then once. Perhaps someone can pull up the relevant canon .

As far as transferring, it is a serious thing and should be undertaken with great discernment and discussions with the parish priest of the church you are transferring to. Some churches have requirements (years attending and living out the spirituality/life) so discussing that with the local UGCC pastor would be necessary.

It should be said, that a transfer shouldn’t be a running away from your old spirituality and theology, but an embracing of the new one.

It is a possibility to change more than once. CCEO and CIC below:

CCEO Canon 33
A wife is at liberty to transfer to the Church of the husband at the celebration of or during the marriage; when the marriage has ended, she can freely return to the original Church sui iuris.

Can. 112 §1 After the reception of baptism, the following become members of another autonomous ritual Church:
1° those who have obtained permission from the Apostolic See;
2° a spouse who, on entering marriage or during its course, has declared that he or she is transferring to the autonomous ritual
Church of the other spouse; on the dissolution of the marriage, however, that person may freely return to the latin Church;
3° the children of those mentioned in nn. 1 and 2 who have not completed their fourteenth year, and likewise in a mixed marriage the children of a catholic party who has lawfully transferred to another ritual Church; on completion of their fourteenth year, however, they may return to the latin Church.
§2 The practice, however long standing, of receiving the sacraments according to the rite of an autonomous ritual Church, does not bring with it membership of that Church.

Canon 112 (NCCCL, Beal, Coriden, Green)
“… because ascription to a ritual church is definitive, it belongs to the status of persons.”
“In effect, the canon distinguishes membership from liturgical practice. This means that change of ritual church membership occurs in one of the three ways provided for in paragraph one.”

Very interesting. For the first time do I learn this regarding the Church’s flexibility on switching rites.

I’ve recently been attending to a very small community of Eastern Catholics just because I fairly recently discovered and fell in loved with their liturgy. However I don’t plan on switching permanently any time soon.

I very much like both the Roman and the Byzantine Rites, especially when celebrated with utmost fervor. So as long as I’m not bound to make a decision, I plan on going back and forth, enjoying the best of both worlds.

Latin Rite is also very attractive to me, but I still have to learn to learn from it and enjoy it.

 

[paglione]

A reply to Tarkan Attila Re: Can a Roman Catholic become a Ukrainian Catholic?
My response: I, too, have been a Roman Catholic all of my life but, after having attended the Divine Liturgy of the Byzantine Greek Catholic Church, I find that I am deeply attracted to the beauty of the Liturgy. Speaking very subjectively I can say that after having participated in the Divine Liturgy I feel that I have truly worshipped my God. I continue to learn the various aspects of the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom and I am able to participate in it. However, I still consider myself a Roman Catholic and I introduce myself to the Byzantine faithful as a Roman Catholic visitor. The permanent Ukrainian priest whom I have come to know is warm and friendly- more so than the priests in my Roman Catholic Church who are not so approachable. The Ukrainian priest is married. His wife and his infant daughter attend the Liturgy each Sunday. And I love the experience of conversing with a maried priest who is a husband and a father. They are much more approachable than the priests in my parish church.
I have not left my R.C. church completely. I am comfortable returning every other Sunday and attending my Ukrainian Greek Catholic Byzantine church on alternate Sundays.
One footnote: I have asked my Dominican Father priest pastor to speak about
The Theotokos from the altar and tell the Roman Catholic faithful who The Theotokos is.
But, painfully, he was not interested and did not respond to my requests.
(signed) Peter

 

[Yarb]

You can change rites, but only after you’ve attended your UGCC for a year or two. Note that you can only change rites once in your lifetime. Keep attending Divine Liturgy, praying and fasting, and be patient. :byzsoc:

Here’s an image from google maps:

maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&tab=wl

Not all of the churches in this neighborhood are sufficiently labeled in this image, but I can clearly see three of them. There are four (seriously, there really are four) Catholic churches within a couple of blocks of each other in this neighborhood of Northeast Minneapolis, close to the Mississippi River. And one Eastern Orthodox church. IIRC, there’s a Ukrainian Catholic Church, a Maronite Catholic Church, a Roman Catholic Church, and one other Catholic Church, and I think there’s a Ukrainian Orthodox church.

So if you live there, you can change rites every five minutes.

 

[BusterMartin]

Here’s an image from google maps:

maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&tab=wl

Not all of the churches in this neighborhood are sufficiently labeled in this image, but I can clearly see three of them. There are four (seriously, there really are four) Catholic churches within a couple of blocks of each other in this neighborhood of Northeast Minneapolis, close to the Mississippi River. And one Eastern Orthodox church. IIRC, there’s a Ukrainian Catholic Church, a Maronite Catholic Church, a Roman Catholic Church, and one other Catholic Church, and I think there’s a Ukrainian Orthodox church.

So if you live there, you can change rites every five minutes.

I don’t know about anyone else, but for me this link just opens Google Maps to the entire country of the US. It’s not zoomed in to where you’re referencing.

 

[I_Thirst]

I don’t know about anyone else, but for me this link just opens Google Maps to the entire country of the US. It’s not zoomed in to where you’re referencing.

Perhaps you’re missing the point?

 

[TarkanAttila]

Here’s an image from google maps:

maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&tab=wl

Not all of the churches in this neighborhood are sufficiently labeled in this image, but I can clearly see three of them. There are four (seriously, there really are four) Catholic churches within a couple of blocks of each other in this neighborhood of Northeast Minneapolis, close to the Mississippi River. And one Eastern Orthodox church. IIRC, there’s a Ukrainian Catholic Church, a Maronite Catholic Church, a Roman Catholic Church, and one other Catholic Church, and I think there’s a Ukrainian Orthodox church.

So if you live there, you can change rites every five minutes.

Your map isn’t showing up. You do not have it zoomed to Minneapolis.

All the same, it would not help me much. I’m from Omaha, NE. We have only one Eastern Catholic church: Assumption.

 

[Serry]

Thirty or so years ago, when I was a Roman Catholic, I joined a Ukrainian Catholic monastery. Figuring I’d spend the rest of my life there, I changed rites. The abbot gave me a model letter to use, in order that my request would be in proper form. I think it went to my Roman Rite bishop, and made the rounds among the concerned bishops and officials, and was granted. The abbot also commented that it’s easier to change from the Roman rite into an Eastern one, than vice versa, simply because the Eastern ones are much smaller, and need some protection, from whatever pressures there may be. Sounded like one could change back, but it’d be more “difficult.” I gather that It’s not something to do casually or frequently.
But I would suggest: take your time. There’s no rush. No race or deadline, give it time to see if your sense of needing or wanting this change will abide. Meanwhile, you can attend Eastern rite parishes. (Just a suggestion.)

 

[Wesley7]

Is there any way for a Roman Catholic to become a Greek or Ukrainian Catholic?

Depends on the parish priest.

 

[route66]

“you can only change rites once in your lifetime”??? Or else WHAT? I doubt violating this rule would earn you Hellfire. Ideas like this are just more grist for the anticatholic mills. Seriously, unless you’re getting married, who is gonna know? I guarantee that even for daily communicants, most Roman Catholic bishops have no idea who Their faithful are.

 

[Hesychios]

“you can only change rites once in your lifetime”??? Or else WHAT? I doubt violating this rule would earn you Hellfire. Ideas like this are just more grist for the anticatholic mills. Seriously, unless you’re getting married, who is gonna know? I guarantee that even for daily communicants, most Roman Catholic bishops have no idea who Their faithful are.

Since one can worship wherever they want regardless of ascription, it hardly matters most of the time. But actually one doesn’t ‘violate’ this rule, one’s request is simply refused or granted as the church authorities see fit and they will undoubtedly try to follow the guidelines laid out for them by the Supreme Authority.

 

[5Loaves]

Welcome to CAF EC Section island dweller

Seriously, unless you’re getting married,** who is gonna know**? I guarantee that even for daily communicants, most Roman Catholic bishops have no idea who Their faithful are.

I think most of us assumed OP was referring to making a formal change in canonical status from the Latin Church to the UGCC. In that case who would know is the pastor of the ECC who would need to provide the bishop with his letter of endorsement for the canonical transfer to the ECC and then the Latin bishop where s/he is domiciled in a Latin parish sending a letter to the Bishop of the ECC releasing her/him to that Church *sui iuris *via that EC bishop. So, parish priest, both bishops, the person making the request, a least would “know”.

Even with a change, not asked about by OP, where in marriage a request can be made for a much simpler change (CIC Can. 112 §1, 2/ ) the priest would assuredly know and those recording on the baptismal or confirmation record that change in Church from Latin to whichever ECC.

If all one is doing is worshiping in different Churches, Latin and ECC/OCC without canonically changing membership, then basically as you say it’s probably appropriately on nobody’s radar.

 

[Yarb]

Here’s an image from google maps:

maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&tab=wl

Not all of the churches in this neighborhood are sufficiently labeled in this image, but I can clearly see three of them. There are four (seriously, there really are four) Catholic churches within a couple of blocks of each other in this neighborhood of Northeast Minneapolis, close to the Mississippi River. And one Eastern Orthodox church. IIRC, there’s a Ukrainian Catholic Church, a Maronite Catholic Church, a Roman Catholic Church, and one other Catholic Church, and I think there’s a Ukrainian Orthodox church.

So if you live there, you can change rites every five minutes.

Sorry—I posted the wrong link. Try this one:

maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=44.994221,-93.260225&spn=0.004636,0.007972&t=h&z=17&vpsrc=6

 

[Vico]

“you can only change rites once in your lifetime”??? Or else WHAT? I doubt violating this rule would earn you Hellfire. Ideas like this are just more grist for the anticatholic mills. Seriously, unless you’re getting married, who is gonna know? I guarantee that even for daily communicants, most Roman Catholic bishops have no idea who Their faithful are.

The Church you are enrolled in determines the validity (not just the liciety) of the sacraments. So it is possible to actually not receive a sacrament, such as marriage, by ignoring the canons.

 

[x1980x]

I hadn’t known about the rule about changing rites only once in a lifetime, and it find it a bit suprising. Is it a really firm rule or just a general recommendation to discourage people from casually “Church shopping” within the Catholic Church? I understand wanting to discourage the frequent changing of rites, but I’d think if someone changed rites, say from Latin to Ukrainian and then realized that in their heart they were still Latin, that they would be allowed to return to their native Church. Or if someone changed rites and then moved to a region in which that Church didn’t have a presence, would they be forced to attend a parish under a different bishop than their own indefinitely?

If I may, let me try to make an analogy. In many (if not most or all) countries, you can legally change your name. There are often procedures that you have to go through (e.g. filing paperwork in court and meeting with a judge). There is some benefit to society for not letting people capriciously change their name on a whim, but there are procedures in place specifically to accommodate people who have a longstanding, burning belief that their parents gave them a name that does not represent who they are. I’m seeing some of that same attitude here. It’s not that they don’t want you going to the Ukrainian church, they want to be sure that doing so would be beneficial for you and the people of God, and not the satisfaction of a passing whim that you will regret next year, after which you will change your mind.

 

[ByzCathCantor]

I ask in this thread because I am a Roman Catholic. And I’ve been attending the Novus Ordo Mass for all my life. Last Sunday, however, I had the life changing experience of attending the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom at the only Ukrainian Catholic Church in the city.

TarkanAttila - I add my post not necessarily to render specific advice (there’s been a lively exchange already) but to acknowledge your wonderful OP. We thankfully now live in an age when Catholics are actively encouraged to experience the fulness of the entire Universal Catholic Church. We do so for this very reason - what connects us to God is a mystery, and sometimes it is the expression of our faith in worship that helps bind us.

You should of course speak with the Ukrainian parish priest for counseling, and I’m reasonably confident he will guide you in a fair and balanced way.

That said, although I’m a Ruthenian, we and the Ukrainians share much in common, including a fair amount of overlap in our chant traditions. The Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church is different in structure than our Byzantine Catholic Ruthenian Church, in that its hierarchy in the US and the “Old Country” is formally connected. The UGCC recently elevated a very young, dynamic Major Archbishop (Patriarch), His Beatitude Sviatoslav (episcopal seat of Kyiv-Galicia). Via the miracle of YouTube and the internet in general, I have seen a great deal of him, and can’t help but be draw in by his faithful exuberance. This is a very nice Church community, with a lot to offer!

God’s blessings to you and your family! As we say just before and in anticipation of the Feast of the Nativity in both traditions, Ukrainian and Ruthenian …

S’nami Boh!
God is with us!