Can a sin be charged to someone who doesn't realize it is a sin?

[thistle]

You have simply quoted the facts for a mortal sin, not a venial sin. And yes, I agree that a mortal sin cannot be unintentional. But unless you can find a source that states a venial sin cannot be unintentional, then I still stick to what I have already said.

As you were the one who first asserted that we can commit sins by accident before I chimed in then its your turn to support your claim.

 

[Chronologic4]

It’s no ones turn to support anyone’s claims at any time.

 

[Chronologic4]

Peace be with you all. I’m out for now. Peace and be cool.

 

[nunsense]

As you were the one who first asserted that we can commit sins by accident before I chimed in then its your turn to support your claim.

While I don’t feel I actually need to support my opinion, as it is just an opinion, I asked for source material from you because I thought you had some authoritative basis for your opinion. But I did do some research just to see what I could find, and this is what I came up with:

According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

1862 One commits venial sin when, in a less serious matter, he does not observe the standard prescribed by the moral law, or when he disobeys the moral law in a grave matter, but without full knowledge or without complete consent.[4]

Although a canon lawyer might interpret this for us better, I read ‘without full knowledge or without complete consent’ to mean that something could be done unintentionally - that is, without intention. An accident is something that happens without intention but that causes injury. A sin can happen unintentionally because it is without full consent or knowledge and it does cause injury to the soul.

accident

/ˈaksɪd(ə)nt/

noun

1. 1. an unfortunate incident that happens unexpectedly and unintentionally, typically resulting in damage or injury.

At this point we are both stating opinions based on our own interpretations of the Catechism. Opinions are just that… not fact.

 

[Thrstypirate]

Stealing a towel from Motel 6 isn’t a mortal sin. Mugging a Motel 6 employee is.

 

[nunsense]

Stealing a towel from Motel 6 isn’t a mortal sin. Mugging a Motel 6 employee is.

I would disagree. If you know that stealing is a crime, and you take a towel that does not belong to you, you are committing a mortal sin. Thou shalt not steal. You know it and consent to it and do it. Mortal sin. The fact that it is breaking a commandment makes it serious.

On a human level, stealing increases insurance premiums, raises motel rates etc etc. Towels aren’t expensive. If you can afford a motel, you can afford to buy your own towel!

 

[goout]

Mortal sin requires grave matter, knowledge, and consent. All three.
You are intentionally committing something of grave matter, with the knowledge that you are rejecting the life of God within you.

Mortal sin does not happen by accident.
If you’re in doubt about it, there is a simple remedy: go to confession. And if there are persistent doubts about your spiritual state (scruples), obey your confessor.

 

[Annie]

Because towels aren’t expensive, stealing one might be considered venial.

If I stole a penny, that would be venial. If I stole a poor person’s $100, that would be mortal. Where does the precise line between venial and mortal lie?

 

[nunsense]

Because towels aren’t expensive, stealing one might be considered venial.

If I stole a penny, that would be venial. If I stole a poor person’s $100, that would be mortal. Where does the precise line between venial and mortal lie?

It is only my opinion but I don’t think the test of mortal or venial is in the amount stolen but in the act itself - stealing breaks a commandment, therefore is serious. Haggling over the amount stolen is just rationalization. If we applied that kind of logic to all crimes (yes, theft is not only a sin, but also a crime), then we could excuse anything. Jesus said to render unto Caesar that which is Caesar’s and render unto God that which is God’s. He didn’t say, don’t pay taxes because it is only a little sin, and besides, the money goes to Caesar, who is rich already.

A well formed conscience should know these things.

 

[goout]

[1858] Grave matter is specified by the Ten Commandments, corresponding to the answer of Jesus to the rich young man: "Do not kill, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and your mother."132 The gravity of sins is more or less great: murder is graver than theft. One must also take into account who is wronged: violence against parents is in itself graver than violence against a stranger.
…
1862 One commits venial sin when, in a less serious matter, he does not observe the standard prescribed by the moral law, or when he disobeys the moral law in a grave matter, but without full knowledge or without complete consent.

 

[Annie]

Haggling over the amount stolen is just rationalization.

No it’s not. It’s what makes theft grave.

 

[nunsense]

No it’s not. It’s what makes theft grave.

No. What makes theft grave is the fact that it is a commandment not to steal. It doesn’t say not to steal a penny or a hundred dollars, it says not to steal.

 

[Annie]

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14564b.htm

 

[TheLittleLady]

“Full knowledge” does not mean you have to be able to write a doctorial thesis on the nuances of this sin.

Murder, the unlawful killing of another person, is sinful.

You know it. Unless you have a mental impairment or you are under the influence of alcohol/drugs that make you lose your faculties, you have full knowledge that murder is sinful.

 

[TheLittleLady]

Theft and dishonesty are both sins which are always sinful but are venial or mortal according to the degree. But if you were completely unaware of the theft of dishonesty then there is quite definitely no sin.

To add, there are times when taking something that does not “belong” to you you is not even theft. Personal property is not an absolute.

So, rely on the Catechism. It is freely available and easy to access from any internet connected device. When it confuses you, go to people who know the faith, your priest, your youth minister, your Rel Ed teacher, etc.

 

[AHapka]

I would think it would also depend on the impact it has on the person or organization stolen from, so it can and will vary. Only God can really see that and judge how serious the sin is.

I find it exceptionally hard to believe that stealing a penny from a person of normal means would be mortal. That said, do enough venial sins and you’ll probably be tempted and maybe then give in to mortal sin.

If doing the slightest thing against a commandment is mortal, I have to wonder about such things as honoring the sabbath. Did you ever do anything, like unnecessary work such as mowing the lawn on a Sunday? Anything you didn’t really have to do? That would then be mortal by your logic.

 

[TheLittleLady]

A sin CANNOT be committed accidentally, be it venial or mortal. All sin committed is deliberate.

A person cannot be held culpable for a sin committed accidentally.

 

[nunsense]

I am seeing that some people like to make escape hatches for sin either by trying to justify it (only stole a penny) or rationalize it (an insignificant amount).

Theologians disagree on a lot of points about theft
http://www.ewtn.com/vexperts/showmessage_print.asp?number=309135&language=en

but the fact is that the commandment says not to steal. I could agree that stealing a loaf of bread when you are starving mitigates the sin, but stealing from someone knowingly without a mitigating reason is theft, plain and simple. Humans are able to rationalize any behavior if it suits their purposes. I prefer to err on the side of caution by avoiding occasions of sin if I am aware that they are sinful acts.

 

[TheLittleLady]

The section on the Universal Destination of Goods and Private Property explains the doctrine well:

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/p...peace_doc_20060526_compendio-dott-soc_en.html

 

[nunsense]

I find it exceptionally hard to believe that stealing a penny from a person of normal means would be mortal. That said, do enough venial sins and you’ll probably be tempted and maybe then give in to mortal sin.

If doing the slightest thing against a commandment is mortal, I have to wonder about such things as honoring the sabbath. Did you ever do anything, like unnecessary work such as mowing the lawn on a Sunday? Anything you didn’t really have to do? That would then be mortal by your logic.

What I can’t understand is why you want to make excuses for sin. So it’s only a penny - then why do you need to steal it? Just ask the person for it. Getting into the habit of stealing or lying or other sins is just lacking in common sense. Any repeated behavior becomes a habit and then become a part of normal behavior. Ask for the penny!

As for breaking other commandments, most of them aren’t too hard to follow. Keeping the sabbath is hardly onerous.Catholics aren’t forbidden from working on Sunday - they are merely asked to attend Mass. The commandments don’t say anything about mowing the lawn, just keeping the day holy. Why is it so hard to keep the commandments? They are common sense for a person of informed conscience.