Can a transitional deacon say the Words of Absolution for comfort to a person

[slotty]

I’m looking at the topic subject line.

Words of Absolution for comfort to a person.

God the Father of mercies,
through the death and resurrection of his Son
has reconciled the world to himself
and sent the Holy Spirit among us
for the forgiveness of sins;

This is a statement of fact

through the ministry of the Church
may God give you pardon and peace,
and I absolve you from your sins
in the name of the Father, and of the Son,
and of the Holy Spirit

For a deacon to say this would be a lie.

So what is it that makes the words comforting?

I would suggest it’s in the validity of those words. For those words to be used in a way that was invalid to someone at death’s door well that would just be cruel.

I would say a deacon should pray for them offer them words of comfort and assure them that Christ died for their sins. In the same way the laity can not perform burials, read the gospel or give homilies so to a deacon can not consecrate the host or give absolution.

Many parts, one body

note:Not sure if posting sacramental words is not allowed so please be nice moderators if it’s not

 

[gus]

A Deacon Can Not give Absolution
A Deacon Can Not Consecrate the Eucerest
Those are the duties of the Bishop and his ordained priests

A decon can babtize, perform marriages, and centainly comfort a dying person or a living person for that matter.
Why would this be cause for you to lose faith?
Did I miss something?

 

[triumphguy]

i understand the consecration part. The point I’m making is that female lay people can administer the sacrament of the Eucharist. If a lay person can administer a sacrament (the highlight of the entire mass), why then can’t a deacon do so in a pinch? If he can make holy water, I wonder…I just wonder sometimes…it doesn’t make sense to me anymore.

A Transitional Deacon is close to being a priest:

But “close” only counts in horseshoes and grenades.

 

[ConstantineTG]

PEOPLE! PEOPLE! PEOPLE!

Did anyone even bother to read the OP? The Deacon wasn’t trying to give absolution. The OP clearly stated that the deacon is just using the words of absolution to give comfort, not to fool anyone into believing he was actually giving absolution.

 

[april32010]

PEOPLE! PEOPLE! PEOPLE!

Did anyone even bother to read the OP? The Deacon wasn’t trying to give absolution. The OP clearly stated that the deacon is just using the words of absolution to give comfort, not to fool anyone into believing he was actually giving absolution.

deacon who went to a dying ladies house and no priest was available to give her last rites at such a late hour… And this deacon, gave her Last rites and Absolution.

 

[Elizium23]

i understand the consecration part. The point I’m making is that female lay people can administer the sacrament of the Eucharist. If a lay person can administer a sacrament (the highlight of the entire mass), why then can’t a deacon do so in a pinch? If he can make holy water, I wonder…I just wonder sometimes…it doesn’t make sense to me anymore.

You miss the point of the Mass. The Mass is a sacrifice, the perfect sacrifice as Jesus’ passion and death is re-presented in unbloody form on the altar. The focus of the Mass is on the altar and the highlight of the Mass is the consecration of the elements. The Mass can be held even without the distribution of Holy Communion to the faithful. Only the priest has to receive the Sacred Species for a valid Mass. But by the time he receives, the highlight of the Mass has passed. That is precisely why it was deemed appropriate to use EMHCs who are not ordained. The deacon is the Ordinary Minister of Holy Communion: it is part of his office to distribute the Eucharist to the faithful. But the deacon is in no way a Minister of the Eucharist or a Minister of Penance. There is no such thing as an “Extraordinary Minister” of these sacraments. The Ordinary Minister is a priest, who alone can confect the Eucharist and who alone has the faculties and the authority to forgive sins on behalf of the whole Church.

It would be better that a laicized priest, that is, a priest who has been “defrocked” and returned to the lay state by the Church, comes to someone in danger of death. In these cases, any priest with or without faculties may validly absolve and administer Last Rites to the dying. But he must be a priest, because a deacon has neither faculties nor authority to absolve. His attempt would be invalid, a simulation of a sacrament, which is sacrilege and unjust to give false hope to the dying. His attempt would have no effect! Why pretend to confer graces when none are given? It would be better to stand by and do nothing - at least that is the honest solution!

I would suggest that you read the Catechism of St. Thomas Aquinas. Aquinas, a Doctor of the Church, is one of the most seminal theologians of all time for Catholics, and his Sacramental Catechism is very succinct and easy to read and still relevant to this day.

 

[paperwight66]

Hmmmm… In this theoretical case, the dying person is mentally ill and afraid. Presumably the deacon has already tried to explain to her that he is not a priest and so can’t give her absolution, but she can’t accept that and is begging for help.

I can’t help being reminded of one of my children getting a night-terror and being convinced there was a tiger under the bed. Nothing I could say could convince her that there wasn’t a tiger. So in the end, I coaxed the tiger out, shooed it out of the bedroom and firmly shut the door after it. Child happy, went back to sleep. I did what I had to do. Was I lying to my child? Well, I suppose I was in one way, but on the other hand, she was incapable of kistening to reason as she was so afraid.

What I’m trying to say is, we must bear in mind that desperate cases call for desperate remedies sometimes. I’m not saying that the mentally ill should be treated as children! But that if reason won’t be listened to, one has to do what seems best at the time.

 

[sw85]

Again, I understand. I am simply speaking in terms of administering a sacrament.

Whether a person is pretending or not, I’m not concerning myself with that. I’m simply asking if a deacon can make holy water, and can read the gospel, and can participate in the exorcism of someone, in the interest of fighting the good fight as they say, I suppose it doesn’t matter. That’s what I get for thinking. I got what I came for, sorry for your trouble. Things like this sadden me & have saddened me to the point of not being able to go to mass for almost a year now & be 100% in it. I’m trying to understand how authority & privilege supersede the obligation to tend to someone who needs help. I miss the mass, but I just try to imagine being in need of such things. Or a loved one. I’m trying to imagine hearing, “sorry, I can’t help you, I’m just a deacon, but my manager will be here soon…”
in an age where women can administer a sacrament, but a deacon can’t administer certain sacraments, but can oversee the burial of a departed person, it creates a tricky web of precedents that are tricky if you’re not careful.

I don’t see what you’re having difficulty comprehending. The priest confects the Eucharist. “Administration” of the Eucharist by a layperson consists in them picking up the already-confected sacrament and giving it to someone else, which they can do because the matter of the sacrament concerns something that can be touched and moved. But the matter of absolution is sin, and the form of absolution are words. How would a deacon or layperson “deliver” or “move” absolution in this case? Absolution consists in spoken words, and only the priest has the authority to speak them meaningfully.

This is Biblical. Jesus gave the apostles the authority to forgive sins, not the apostles and the deacons (who didn’t yet exist), not the apostles and their buddies, etc. The apostles alone. The Church in her infallible wisdom has determined that this gift was given them by virtue of their membership in the presbyterate, so that members of the presbyterate exercise this ministry on the Church’s behalf.

A better question is, why are you allowing obscure issues of sacramentology to deprive you of the one true faith?

 

[Gorgias]

Again, I understand. I am simply speaking in terms of administering a sacrament.

I think you’re getting hung up on the word ‘administer’. An EMHC can administer the Eucharist – but can only administer what has already been made a sacrament. That is to say, an EMHC who is carrying around unconsecrated hosts cannot consecrate them, but can only deliver already consecrated hosts.

A deacon can carry around blessed oils, but he cannot ‘make’ the sacrament of the anointing of the sick. In other words, the sacrament of the anointing of the sick is more than the simple administration of the oil.

Does that help?

(Edited to add: looks like sw85 and I picked up on the same thing, at just about the same time! )

 

[catholictiger]

PEOPLE! PEOPLE! PEOPLE!

Did anyone even bother to read the OP? The Deacon wasn’t trying to give absolution. The OP clearly stated that the deacon is just using the words of absolution to give comfort, not to fool anyone into believing he was actually giving absolution.

it doesn’t matter a deacon should say words that have no effect. If you are old and dieing and you hear someone, who is wearing a collar, say I absolve you of your sins, do you think oh he is only a deacon he is trying to comfort me. No you would think yeah my sins have been forgiven. Plus what is the point of doing that you are risking way to much for something that can be done by other prayers.

 

[Gorgias]

ConstantineTG:

PEOPLE! PEOPLE! PEOPLE!

Did anyone even bother to read the OP? The Deacon wasn’t trying to give absolution. The OP clearly stated that the deacon is just using the words of absolution to give comfort, not to fool anyone into believing he was actually giving absolution.

deacon who went to a dying ladies house and no priest was available to give her last rites at such a late hour… And this deacon, gave her Last rites and Absolution.

April, you’re missing the fact that you’ve quoted the words of the second example, and are applying it to the deacon in the first example.

It seems we’re getting caught up in language. In the second example, the deacon is described as “giving last rites and absolution” – in other words, he intends to simulate the sacrament. (Big no-no, there!) In the first example, the OP is asking whether a deacon might just ‘say the words’. As (Father) buc_fan33 mentions, saying the words would have no effect; yet, the OP seems not to be asking whether a sacrament would be administered. As SMHW points out, there seems to be a grammatical issue at stake here.

However, the real question is whether ‘saying the words’ (i.e., not a sin) would be ‘simulating a sacrament’ (i.e., big sin) on the deacon’s part. If his intent is “to give comfort”, one might ask what the source of that comfort would be. If the nurse on duty were to “say the words”, would the patient be comforted? No? Well, then, the comfort would seem to flow from hearing the deacon (who would be dressed in clerics, I’d assume, or who at least would have identified himself as a deacon) “say the words” – in other words, the comfort would come from some small hope that “the words” would be efficacious when said by this man.

In other words, the comfort would come from the person’s belief that the sacrament was being administered. If this is the case, then yeah, I’d say that the deacon (whether well-intentioned or not) was “simulating the sacrament”, and would be in the wrong. Even if he knew there was no sacrament being administered, he would be committing a great mistake…

 

[AJV]

A better thing for the deacon to do, if it is really pastorally necessary to comfort the person, would be to lead the person in a prayer like the “I confess” and then recite a deprecatory formula such as “May the Almighty God have mercy …” similar to what is recited at Mass or the Liturgy of the Hours.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

A Transitional Deacon is close to being a priest:

But “close” only counts in horseshoes and grenades.

A Deacon is a Deacon. A man is ordained to be a deacon. There really is no such thing in Orders as a “transitional” deacon. This term is used so that everyone knows that this particular deacon is on a track of studies that will end with ordination to the priesthood. To let us know that his stop over as a deacon will be short.

PEOPLE! PEOPLE! PEOPLE!

Did anyone even bother to read the OP? The Deacon wasn’t trying to give absolution. The OP clearly stated that the deacon is just using the words of absolution to give comfort, not to fool anyone into believing he was actually giving absolution.

As asked earlier, where does one find comfort in the prayer of absolution? The comfort comes from validly being absolved.

There are many other prayers that the deacon, that any one really, can pray with an individual to help comfort that person. The prayer of Absolution has only one meaning and one goal to it. It is not something that a deacon should be doing and by doing so he makes himself irregular for ordination to the priesthood according to Canon Law.

 

[LJN21]

Doesn’t the power to administer absolution come though faculties given by the bishop of the diocese your in? Deacons would not have this, same way the priests of SSPX have no faculties to hear Confessions and give absolution.

 

[catholictiger]

Doesn’t the power to administer absolution come though faculties given by the bishop of the diocese your in? Deacons would not have this, same way the priests of SSPX have no faculties to hear Confessions and give absolution.

NO

SSPX is not in communion with the pope so their priests aren’t a part of the Catholic Church meaning their sacraments are invalid.

I’m pretty sure the vatican is the one who sets the standard about who can hear confession. A bishop doesn’t have the power to say to a 2nd year seminarian you can hear confessions and forgive sins.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Doesn’t the power to administer absolution come though faculties given by the bishop of the diocese your in? Deacons would not have this, same way the priests of SSPX have no faculties to hear Confessions and give absolution.

That’s true but there are assumed faculties for the Sacrament of Penance in the case of imminent death that may apply in some cases.

 

[triumphguy]

A Deacon is a Deacon. A man is ordained to be a deacon. There really is no such thing in Orders as a “transitional” deacon. This term is used so that everyone knows that this particular deacon is on a track of studies that will end with ordination to the priesthood. To let us know that his stop over as a deacon will be short.

As asked earlier, where does one find comfort in the prayer of absolution? The comfort comes from validly being absolved.

There are many other prayers that the deacon, that any one really, can pray with an individual to help comfort that person. The prayer of Absolution has only one meaning and one goal to it. It is not something that a deacon should be doing and by doing so he makes himself irregular for ordination to the priesthood according to Canon Law.

I know that - I just wanted to make my horseshoe and grenade joke

 

[triumphguy]

NO

SSPX is not in communion with the pope so their priests aren’t a part of the Catholic Church meaning their sacraments are invalid.

I’m pretty sure the vatican is the one who sets the standard about who can hear confession. A bishop doesn’t have the power to say to a 2nd year seminarian you can hear confessions and forgive sins.

Actually an SSPX priest can validly hear confession where death is imminent…

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

I know that - I just wanted to make my horseshoe and grenade joke

I know that but I have always heard it as “horseshoes, hand grenades, and atom bombs”.

Actually an SSPX priest can validly hear confession where death is imminent…

http://msnsmileys.net/k/smileys/Kolobok_Big_-Standard/scratch_one-s_head.gif Thought I said that. http://msnsmileys.net/k/smileys/Kolobok_Big-_Standard/scratch_one-s_head.gif

 

[DCNBILL]

A better thing for the deacon to do, if it is really pastorally necessary to comfort the person, would be to lead the person in a prayer like the “I confess” and then recite a deprecatory formula such as “May the Almighty God have mercy …” similar to what is recited at Mass or the Liturgy of the Hours.

The administration of Viaticum would not have been a bad idea either.