Can a Vigil Mass be said at 3:00 P.M. on Saturday?

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Due to renovation and construction of the church hall, at a local parish, this year the only place to hold Mass was in the Church. There was no over flow capabilities or second Mass in the parish hall, as in past years. So the Pastor, with I am told the consent of the Bishop, had several Vigil Masses on Christmas Eve. The first one starting at 3:00 P.M. It was packed with people actually standing almost into the parking lot! I guess they wanted to “get it over with” so they had more time to open presents on Christmas morning!

I am not a supporter of the Vigil Mass normally. I think it is an abuse of keeping Holy the Sabbath. I often hear people say they regularly attend the 5:30 P.M. on Saturday to “get it over with!” When it is my understanding it is not suppose to be for that but for those who’s jobs or responsibilities do not allow them to attend Mass on Sunday. The typical: Police, Fireman, or Nurse scenario.

My question is, I thought cannon law stated that a Vigil Mass could not be said any earlier than 4:00 P.M. on the eve of the previous day. Isn’t 4:00 P.M. earlier enough? It seems to me that the Catholic Church has invented the 30 hour day! I know the argument is that in Ancient times and in many cultures the day starts at sun down. The Jewish people have a published chart, by some established authority such as a Rabbi, that tells them the actual time for a specific location. One can go on the internet and find that information. The same is true for the Muslims. However, we Catholics just say 4:00 P.M. BUT we do not end it at 4:00 P.M. on Sunday. A Mass at 11:00 P.M. on Sunday can count for that Sunday, thus the 30 hour day! How can this be?

Respectively yous, but confused

Pappa Matt
 
3:00 pm, the usual hour for None, is never acceptable for a Vigil Mass.

It’s abusive.
 
Incidentally, on this general topic, I shall never forget the old woman a pastor mentioned to me who attended Mass:

Monday-Friday 7:00 am
Saturday 8 am
Saturday 5 pm

The only day of the week she didn’t visit the church was Sunday. Yes, yes, I know Saturday night often liturgically = Sunday. But the irony is still present.
 
AlexV said:
3:00 pm, the usual hour for None, is never acceptable for a Vigil Mass.

It’s abusive.
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Such an open mind. What if 3pm happens to be after sundown? It would then be a vigil, yes?

The original poster is not a supporter of Vigil Masses. That’s a bias. But the fact is- the church allows them. Reasons are up to individual conscience.

And- we learn- in this specific case, the Bishop allowed it. So how is that you, here on the internet and without benefit of full facts, can declare the Bishop to be allowing an abuse?
 
I have no problems with Vigil Masses. But 3:00 pm is a liturgical hour, the hour of None.

The fact a bishop permitted it doesn’t make it “right” (the same tired old problem, i.e., a bishop allowed it, ergo it’s okay).

There is really no reason to schedule a 3:00 pm Vigil Mass. None whatsoever.
 
And yes, I’ve heard of these alleged mega-parishes where you just MUST have a zillion Masses the night before.

Huh? Really?

4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10…that’s not enough? You just HAVE to have 3?

What’s next? 2? 1?

The day before the day before?

Somewhere, reason needs to enter the picture. And liturgically, 3 pm is the Midafternoon Prayer (None) for December 24. It’s not Christmas yet. That’s where the figure of 4 pm comes from. 4 pm is fine. 3 pm, no.
 
we also had 4 Masses Christmas eve, because the custom here is Mass Christmas eve, family time and dinner and celebration on Christmas day. Plenty of time for 4 Masses beginning at 6 last one at Midnight. one Mass during the day. 6 pm was packed, others just comfortably full, Spanish Mass half full

the earliest Sat. evening Mass here begins at 5 normally.

none of these by the way are vigil Masses, they are anticipated

we did have a Mass for the Vigil of Christmas, on Monday morning.

the bishop has not appointed me as liturgist for the diocese so I am content to go by his rules, and not start my own local Church, I suggest posters here who are getting their knickers in a not over non-issues that for their own spiritual peace of mind they give it a rest.
 
Unless you use the 1962 Missal, you didn’t celebrate the Vigil for Christmas on the morning of December 24. You celebrated a Late Advent Weekday.

The proper Vigil Mass for Christmas can only be celebrated on the late afternoon/evening of the 24th.

However, you can also use the READINGS for ANY of the Christmas Masses at ANY of the times from Vigil through Day.

Just to be accurate.
 
AlexV said:
Unless you use the 1962 Missal, you didn’t celebrate the Vigil for Christmas on the morning of December 24. You celebrated a Late Advent Weekday.

The proper Vigil Mass for Christmas can only be celebrated on the late afternoon/evening of the 24th.

However, you can also use the READINGS for ANY of the Christmas Masses at ANY of the times from Vigil through Day.

Just to be accurate.
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I am not sure that “nit-picking” can properly be used as a synonym for “accurate”.

Also, the hour of none generally ended at 3 (it was 12-3, I think) in the early church. And 3pm is the latest that mid-afternoon prayers can be said, not the only time. ( FYI I have read that indults for anticipated Masses for 3pm, and even back to noon, were given from Rome in the 1980s for some local areas, which I’m sure will not please you)

My parish had 6 Masses on Christmas Eve- 2 at 4, 2 at 6, and one each at 8 and midnight, plus 3 more on Christmas morning. And all of them were full. So yes, we started at 4, which is the normal standard, but I could envision a need for going earlier if growth continued, as the fire marshall turns people away as it is.
 
I think the earliest a Vigil Mass can be said is 4:00 PM.

I like the Christmas Eve Vigil Mass reading, but this year instead of having Mass at 5:30 like they usually have had for years, they had Christmas Eve Mass at 4:00. I’m going to suggest that my Pastor add another Mass at 7:00, so there are two Masses offered for Vigil.
 
I’d suggest asking your Priest or the Bishop’s office about this schedule.
 
It’s amazing how some people are blithely unconcerned with liturgical honesty and propriety.

9 am is traditionally Terce, 12 Noon Sext, 3 pm None.

My question remains. What in the name of heaven is the limit? Shall we just say any Mass from December 23-25 “counts” (since “counting” is all some people care about)?

After all, when is too early too early?

No church in the world can’t make do with 4 pm the night before through the following evening.

Of course it’s fascinating that most of these problems impact the night before and not the night OF. After all, the night OF isn’t so nicely “convenient” as the night before-get-it-out-of-the-way mentality that IS prevalent in so many locales.
 
Yeah, so if a bishop says 8 am the day before “counts”, it’s fine.
 
AlexV said:
It’s amazing how some people are blithely unconcerned with liturgical honesty and propriety.

9 am is traditionally Terce, 12 Noon Sext, 3 pm None.

My question remains. What in the name of heaven is the limit? Shall we just say any Mass from December 23-25 “counts” (since “counting” is all some people care about)?

After all, when is too early too early?

No church in the world can’t make do with 4 pm the night before through the following evening.

Of course it’s fascinating that most of these problems impact the night before and not the night OF. After all, the night OF isn’t so nicely “convenient” as the night before-get-it-out-of-the-way mentality that IS prevalent in so many locales.
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For myself, I am no more unconcerned about “liturgical honesty and propriety” than I am about Internet Catholics who think they are more correct than bishops, and sometimes, the Pope himself.

Your “night OF” remarks are irrelevant and just show that you’re inclined to blame Catholics who licitly attend anticipated Masses.

No one is advocating for day before, morning before, etc. All I am pointing out is that we don’t know the facts, we don’t know the location (and thus sunset), we don’t know the church size/attendance, we don’t know the bishop’s reasons, and you’re ignoring that indults were issued for earlier times in the past.

What we do know, going back to the original post: the parish in question had a need for overflow Masses in prior years, implying attendance is very high at Christmas. Due to construction, overflow Masses were no longer possible. We know that there were “several” Vigil Masses. Perhaps the original poster can tell us what that means- if they ran continously or almost continously, your point is moot- they were all needed. Did you even read that, and think about it charitably? If the church was full for every Mass that evening and Christmas morning (and if the original poster has facts as opposed to just opinion/hearsay on that)- does that change your mind? Isn’t it more important that everyone there get a chance to go to Christmas Mass in their home parish?
 
I raised a perfectly valid point that a friend of mine (a bishop) once raised: WHY so few Sunday EVENING Masses, and so many Saturday? He asked a question. So did I. Perfectly relevant and valid.

As for “sunset”, that’s not an issue. Why? Because I don’t imagine you’d argue that in July a Saturday anticipated Mass has to wait until…9:30 pm to start. Of course not. It’s sun blazing and full day at 6 pm, but obviously we have to have SOME practical adjustment.

But 3 pm? It doesn’t take brain surgery to know that there needs to be a limit. 4 pm is already somewhat on the line. 3 pm is over it.

Of course you can argue that a bishop gets to decide what’s over the line. Fine. So when a bishop says 2 pm, are we supposed to bow our heads and say he’s right?
 
It would be wonderful if we were able to have Lauds at sunrise and Vespers at sunset and say that Mass can’t start until after sunset, etc.

That’s an ideal. It’s done in some monasteries. Parishes are less likely to do it, though I might note that the reason the old rules existed was to make sure that you didn’t START Mass before sunset the night before. But anyway…

Once you allow your precious anticipated Masses (which my friend the bishop once said seemed “more priceless than gold to some Catholics”), you must address just how early they can start.

A pastor I know said 25 years ago it was thought improper to start before 5:00 in his church. Now it’s 4 pm. Some people are clamoring for 3 pm.

Enough is enough. Again, where are the Sunday evening Masses? Why this obsession in some locales with “as early as possible” on Saturday?
 
AlexV said:
I raised a perfectly valid point that a friend of mine (a bishop) once raised: WHY so few Sunday EVENING Masses, and so many Saturday? He asked a question. So did I. Perfectly relevant and valid.

As for “sunset”, that’s not an issue. Why? Because I don’t imagine you’d argue that in July a Saturday anticipated Mass has to wait until…9:30 pm to start. Of course not. It’s sun blazing and full day at 6 pm, but obviously we have to have SOME practical adjustment.

But 3 pm? It doesn’t take brain surgery to know that there needs to be a limit. 4 pm is already somewhat on the line. 3 pm is over it.

Of course you can argue that a bishop gets to decide what’s over the line. Fine. So when a bishop says 2 pm, are we supposed to bow our heads and say he’s right?
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Let’s go back to, oh, the original question again: this was about Christmas Vigil, a one-day 3pm start. I love that you have expanded the question being asked. So tell me- given the facts described in the original question, why shouldn’t the bishop make an accommodation to allow people that might otherwise be blocked by the fire marshal for overcrowding to attend?
 
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