Can a Vigil Mass be said at 3:00 P.M. on Saturday?

[AlexV]

As I ALREADY stated, I find it difficult to believe that, say:

4pm-5 pm-6 pm-7 pm-8 pm-9 pm-10 pm isn’t sufficient.

And those would just be vigils.

I’d like to know of ANY parish that can fill just the Christmas Vigil Masses at those 7 times, not even counting midnight and the next morning, and STILL need to schedule additional Masses.

 

[AlexV]

I am glad to see Bluehen would oppose any anticipated Mass that began before sundown.

 

[bluehen]

As I ALREADY stated, I find it difficult to believe that, say:

4pm-5 pm-6 pm-7 pm-8 pm-9 pm-10 pm isn’t sufficient.

And those would just be vigils.

I’d like to know of ANY parish that can fill just the Christmas Vigil Masses at those 7 times, not even counting midnight and the next morning, and STILL need to schedule additional Masses.

OK, at least we’re back to discussing Christmas Eve again.

My parish fills 6 Masses on Christmas Eve, including midnight, and we have had to turn away people due to fire marshal regs.

Surely you also recognize you cannot have Masses starting on every hour. If you’re proposing that the church has enough excess parking to do a 59 minute, 59 second Mass, and immediately start another one with the exiting/entering of parishioners, I’d like to see the church with that crowd management system. i think 4pm, 5:30, 7, 8:30, 10, and 12 is the most a church could do. That’s 5 vigil Masses plus midnight.

Starting at 3, I’d imagine then going 4:30, 6, 7:30, 9, and 10:30… but that wouldn’t work at my church because Christmas decorations and the Nativity are altered between 10pm and 11:30 to get ready for the Midnight Mass.

So let’s go back to the 6 vigil Masses question- if it were necessary to start at 3pm in order to get 6 vigil Masses in (or let’s even suppose it’s 5 because of parking lot issues, etc), and have them all full, would you agree that the bishop has the right to offer a dispensation for Christmas Eve?

And let’s charitably ignore anticipated Masses- because those are a different issue than vigils, yes? Vigils have always been in a different category.

 

[Digitonomy]

No particular time is mentioned in canon law.

That is correct. “The evening of the day before” has been interpreted as beginning at 4 pm by the Canon Law Society of America in its commentary, and beginning at noon by the Canon Law Society of Great Britain and Ireland. An article that is no longer available online made a good case that 4 pm is consistent with the history of anticipated masses prior to their being regularized. However, I do think that a Bishop has the authority to divine his own interpretation of canon law at odds with prevailing opinion in this country.

 

[bluehen]

I am glad to see Bluehen would oppose any anticipated Mass that began before sundown.

I would oppose regularly scheduling anticipated Masses before sundown, with your valid point of July late sundowns as an adjustment. My parish has a 5pm anticipated Mass.

However, given that the original question related to a church with reduced space, on the highest attendance day of the year, I continue to argue that dispensations as needed in the bishop’s judgement should not be judged from afar.

Regular 3pm scheduling, from what I can glean from the original post, is far from the actual situation as introduced.

 

[AlexV]

In the 2002 Missal all Masses at Christmas can use any of the Christmas sets of readings. Properly, the Mass from First Vespers until Midnight Mass is of the Vigil, but the rubrics allow any set of readings. You can call it a Vigil even if you don’t use the Vigil readings.

You’re right that every hour on the hour is unrealistic. So, here’s the issue:

4, 6:30, 8, 9:30, Midnight. That’s 5 Masses.

Let’s imagine 8 am, 9:30, Noon. That’s three more on the day.

You didn’t mention day. You said you can easily fill 6 Vigil Masses. I gave you 4 + a Midnight, and 3 on the day.

So the question is…WHY do people have a right to a Vigil at all costs? Are you telling me that the EIGHT Masses I outlined above are insufficient? How about 7 am, 8:30, 10, 11:30, 1?

Still insufficient?

How about Christmas Day evening? Throw in another 1-2 there (as one parish near me does).

You’re setting up a game where the ONLY answer is a 3 pm Vigil. I counter with, what if the Fire Marshal says still too crowded. Do we add a 1:30 pm Vigil? Where does it stop?

 

[bluehen]

In the 2002 Missal all Masses at Christmas can use any of the Christmas sets of readings. Properly, the Mass from First Vespers until Midnight Mass is of the Vigil, but the rubrics allow any set of readings. You can call it a Vigil even if you don’t use the Vigil readings.

You’re right that every hour on the hour is unrealistic. So, here’s the issue:

4, 6:30, 8, 9:30, Midnight. That’s 5 Masses.

Let’s imagine 8 am, 9:30, Noon. That’s three more on the day.

You didn’t mention day. You said you can easily fill 6 Vigil Masses. I gave you 4 + a Midnight, and 3 on the day.

So the question is…WHY do people have a right to a Vigil at all costs?

Well, I’d certainly argue that people have a right to Easter Vigil! And I’d put Christmas as a close second to that.

Are you telling me that the NINE Masses I outlined above are insufficient? How about 7 am, 8:30, 10, 11:30, 1?

Still insufficient?

How about Christmas Day evening? Throw in another 1-2 there (as one parish near me does).

You’re setting up a game where the ONLY answer is a 3 pm Vigil. I counter with, what if the Fire Marshal says still too crowded. Do we add a 1:30 pm Vigil? Where does it stop?

I don’t know if Nine is insufficient. Nine is what my parish needs, though. We do six for Vigil, as I described, and 3 in the morning. The priests (we have 3) say that any more than that would burn them out- each says 2 for Vigil and 1 in the morning. They need Christmas afternoon off as well to rejoice and rest!

1:30 if needed, as described? I’ll punt that question to an apologist or canon lawyer.

 

[AlexV]

Yeah, well, there is only permission for ONE Easter Vigil, with limited allowance for a second one under strict circumstances. Thankfully nobody has suggested mass-producing Easter Vigils.

The clergy do indeed need to rest. Marathons of 9 Vigils don’t facilitate resting either.

1:30 pm Christmas Vigil? Yeah, a canonist might get a laugh out of that one.

 

[James0235]

That is correct. “The evening of the day before” has been interpreted as beginning at 4 pm by the Canon Law Society of America in its commentary, and beginning at noon by the Canon Law Society of Great Britain and Ireland. An article that is no longer available online made a good case that 4 pm is consistent with the history of anticipated masses prior to their being regularized. However, I do think that a Bishop has the authority to divine his own interpretation of canon law at odds with prevailing opinion in this country.

4PM at least seems a reasonable interpretation. But, noon?

I have heard that it can be a bit overcast in England. I guess it is so dark that noon is considered to be the evening.

James

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

Due to renovation and construction of the church hall, at a local parish, this year the only place to hold Mass was in the Church. There was no over flow capabilities or second Mass in the parish hall, as in past years. So the Pastor, with I am told the consent of the Bishop, had several Vigil Masses on Christmas Eve. The first one starting at 3:00 P.M. It was packed with people actually standing almost into the parking lot! I guess they wanted to “get it over with” so they had more time to open presents on Christmas morning!

I am not a supporter of the Vigil Mass normally. I think it is an abuse of keeping Holy the Sabbath. I often hear people say they regularly attend the 5:30 P.M. on Saturday to “get it over with!” When it is my understanding it is not suppose to be for that but for those who’s jobs or responsibilities do not allow them to attend Mass on Sunday. The typical: Police, Fireman, or Nurse scenario.

My question is, I thought cannon law stated that a Vigil Mass could not be said any earlier than 4:00 P.M. on the eve of the previous day. Isn’t 4:00 P.M. earlier enough? It seems to me that the Catholic Church has invented the 30 hour day! I know the argument is that in Ancient times and in many cultures the day starts at sun down. The Jewish people have a published chart, by some established authority such as a Rabbi, that tells them the actual time for a specific location. One can go on the internet and find that information. The same is true for the Muslims. However, we Catholics just say 4:00 P.M. BUT we do not end it at 4:00 P.M. on Sunday. A Mass at 11:00 P.M. on Sunday can count for that Sunday, thus the 30 hour day! How can this be?

Respectively yous, but confused

Pappa Matt

I believe that Rome set 3PM for any Vigil (except Easter) and the USCCB upped it to 4pm for the United States. I do not believe that an individual Bishop can choose to make it eariler, they can make it later in their diocese, but not eariler.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

Such an open mind. What if 3pm happens to be after sundown? It would then be a vigil, yes?

The original poster is not a supporter of Vigil Masses. That’s a bias. But the fact is- the church allows them. Reasons are up to individual conscience.

And- we learn- in this specific case, the Bishop allowed it. So how is that you, here on the internet and without benefit of full facts, can declare the Bishop to be allowing an abuse?

Sundown specifically does not effect any vigil except the Easter Vigil.

 

[NewUlm1976_2000]

Due to renovation and construction of the church hall, at a local parish, this year the only place to hold Mass was in the Church. There was no over flow capabilities or second Mass in the parish hall, as in past years. So the Pastor, with I am told the consent of the Bishop, had several Vigil Masses on Christmas Eve. The first one starting at 3:00 P.M. It was packed with people actually standing almost into the parking lot! I guess they wanted to “get it over with” so they had more time to open presents on Christmas morning!

You answered your own question as to why this happened. Renovation, lack of space, a large parish with a high turnout period. It is acceptable, it clearly is unusual circumstances, I expect after the renovation is done it would go back to the times before it. Just be happy so many turned out for mass. 3pm appears to be agreed upon because of crowd control to get people in and out. Making sure large masses run smoothly is not a trivial task.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

Is sunset relevant to the question?

No, other than it has historical roots in the Jewish practice.

 

[Joannm]

Incidentally, on this general topic, I shall never forget the old woman a pastor mentioned to me who attended Mass:

Monday-Friday 7:00 am
Saturday 8 am
Saturday 5 pm

The only day of the week she didn’t visit the church was Sunday. Yes, yes, I know Saturday night often liturgically = Sunday. But the irony is still present.

My MIL does that…daily 9 am mass mon-sat and 5 pm on Sat night. She doesn’t go to mass on Sunday.

 

[Ilroy]

And for more nit picking…all those saying the midnight Mass is a vigil Mass or a Chrismas Eve Mass, not true. Midnight Mass is the first Mass celebrated on the actual day of Christmas.

 

[THurifer2]

Yes it is entirely acceptable under ONE condition.

THe mass is in new york and the clock determining the time is in DENVER.