Can a vocal Pro-abort be a Liturgical Minister?

[pete_29]

Yes they do. They don’t cease being Catholic even if they are not in communion.

The Church doesn’t want to chase them out. She wants the Good Shepherd to bring them back into full communion.

It may take time. A long time. It would take even longer (and perhaps never) if we chased them out.

Sorry, I didn’t mean for it to sound like it did. Poor communication skills.

 

[steve_b]

a visiting retired priest led us at Mass on Sat. 9-8 as ours was on vacation. He shared his dismay with what the Democratic Convention had to say about contraception, abortion and “gay rights.” (this was less than a minute of his homily) As i was listening my mind went to how brave he was and wondered what kind of reaction he’d get after Mass. Sure enough as i approached him to thank him for this truth, he was being accosted by ----- one of the most outspoken supporters of abortion and Obama supporter.

As i approached him, she left and i said how brave he was to say what he did. *He immediately said that he had been wrong and shouldn’t have said anything, that he should have “kept religion out of it.” She had got to him with her divisive tongue spouting about *“separation of Church and State.” I told him that he had done the right thing and we need to hear these truths from the pulpit. *He was visibly rattled and said that the Republicans also supported abortion, *so i told him that they do not and their platform specifically is against abortion (i wondered where he got that info from). i’m pretty sure he left that portion out of his homily at the later Masses that weekend.
( i emailed this to our parish priest and am awaiting his actions ).

Thoughts? Comments? Did i handle this appropriately?

One who is knowledgable of these issues doesn’t back down on these issues. Here’s the Democratic party platform on abortion

Protecting A Woman’s Right to Choose. The Democratic Party strongly and unequivocally supports Roe v. Wade and a woman’s right to make decisions regarding her pregnancy, including a safe and legal abortion, regardless of ability to pay. We oppose any and all efforts to weaken or undermine that right. Abortion is an intensely personal decision between a woman, her family, her doctor, and her clergy; there is no place for politicians or government to get in the way. We also recognize that health care and education help reduce the number of unintended pregnancies and thereby also reduce the need for abortions. We strongly and unequivocally support a woman’s decision to have a child by providing affordable health care and ensuring the availability of and access to programs that help women during pregnancy and after the birth of a child, including caring adoption programs.

President Obama and the Democratic Party are committed to supporting family planning around the globe to help women care for their families, support their communities, and lead their countries to be healthier and more productive. That’s why, in his first month in office, President Obama overturned the “global gag rule,” a ban on federal funds to foreign family planning organizations that provided information about, counseling on, or offered abortions. And that is why the administration has supported lifesaving family planning health information and services.
democrats.org/democratic-national-platform#protecting-rights

Keep in mind this is the same bunch who boo’d God and wanted Him taken out of the Democratic platform @ this years convention.

Re: the “gag rule” abcnews.go.com/Politics/International/story?id=6716958&page=1 After Reagan’s executive order to take funding away, every time a Democrat is in office, by executive order, he commits American taxpayer dollars to fund abortions in Mexico. That funding is $400 million / yr. When a Republican is in office that funding is cut off. And back and forth it goes along party lines. If a Democrat is in office 8 years, we send $1.6 billion to Mexico for abortions. If a Republican is in office, we save that much money and who knows how many lives.

Obama voted against the born alive infant protection act. iow on a botched abortion and the baby is there alive outside the mom, the doctor can refuse any medical treatment and let the baby die. Afterall the baby wasn’t intended to live anyway. And as Obama states to vote in favor of this act, would repress Roe v Wade.
factcheck.org/2008/08/obama-and-infanticide/

God help us
cm:

As i was about to get in my car, she came down the sidewalk and i asked her what she thought about the homily. She said the bit about Church and State and then i found out where Fr. got the bit about the Republicans being in favor of abortion – she said Paul Ryan had said that he didn’t care one way or another about abortion, which i know is an outright lie. I told her that was totally untrue.

Then she said that i was “pro-birth” not pro-Life, which i replied with that i am pro-Life, as life begins at conception (fertilization). Things were getting heated now. I asked her if she had children and she said she had 3. i said well what if you had had abortion(s), what then? Her reply, *“that’s not the point.” *To which i said, *“it most certainly is the point. . . life begins at conception.” *i really don’t know what her point is as she didn’t say. As an aside, i wonder if she actually did have an abortion perhaps later in life for say child # 4.

As she got in her car, i sort of lost it and said that she should not be on the altar (she was a Eucharistic minister @ Mass & in the past has also been a lector). I am just so sick of people like her calling themselves Catholic when they are so public about their heresy! Please confront her about this and recuse her from any liturgical ministry at our parish.

good for you. BTW, if the pastor doesn’t do anything, then let the bishop know as well

 

[WingsOfEagles]

You know, Catholics who are Pro-Choice really bother me. I can’t imagine how someone could be.

Though against gay marriage, I understand a well-meaning Catholic feeling that as far as government is concerned, it should be legal.

I understand a Catholic struggling with true presence.

I can’t understand a Catholic argument for why abortion should be okay.

 

[superamazingman]

Priests should speak up. Frankly, I find it odd that a parishioner would tell a priest to “keep religion out of it”! Huh? That makes no sense.

That’s like telling a baker to keep his dough out of it.

 

[markeverett49]

It makes sense to people who think that the first amendment of the American Constitution was designed to to keep the keep both Church and State from telling them what to believe and what they can or cannot do.

I never met anyone who thought the First Amendment meant that priests couldn’t talk about abortion in church!

 

[OraLabora]

I can’t understand a Catholic argument for why abortion should be okay.

Honestly I can’t understand ANY argument on why abortion should be OK. Even looking at the cold raw science… it is a known, established scientific fact that shortly after the fusion of sperm and egg, a zygote is created that has the entire genetic mapping of a unique human being. Any attempt at p(name removed by moderator)ointing the beginning of life at any time after that is merely the arbitrary imposition of personal sentiment, that has nothing to do with the science.

Even before morality comes into play, the science is clear when human genetic identity, and hence life, starts.

Pro-abortionists can’t even pass the test of cold, hard, scientific logic. Selecting which child should live and which should die is the same amoral sentiment that was used to sort the Jews sent to concentration camps. Completely arbitrary, without any scientific merit, and without any moral fibre.

 

[WingsOfEagles]

Honestly I can’t understand ANY argument on why abortion should be OK. Even looking at the cold raw science… it is a known, established scientific fact that shortly after the fusion of sperm and egg, a zygote is created that has the entire genetic mapping of a unique human being. Any attempt at p(name removed by moderator)ointing the beginning of life at any time after that is merely the arbitrary imposition of personal sentiment, that has nothing to do with the science.

Even before morality comes into play, the science is clear when human genetic identity, and hence life, starts.

Pro-abortionists can’t even pass the test of cold, hard, scientific logic. Selecting which child should live and which should die is the same amoral sentiment that was used to sort the Jews sent to concentration camps. Completely arbitrary, without any scientific merit, and without any moral fibre.

Many atheists will tell you a zygote isn’t self-aware to feel pain. It’s hard to say for certain, by even a zygote is a life IMO.

 

[markeverett49]

Many atheists will tell you a zygote isn’t self-aware to feel pain. It’s hard to say for certain, by even a zygote is a life IMO.

It isn’t a tough call for embryologists. Law prof Robert George has a good book on this called “Embryo: A Defense of Human Life.” His concern in that book is not abortion but embryonic stem-cell research. He gives strong arguments for his position AGAINST embryonic stem-cell research but also provides a lay-primer in the relevant embryology and biology. There’s no doubt among scientists whether human embryos are human (-duh) or whether they are human lives distinct from their parents.

This, by the way, is why some bioethicists now talk about personhood as a socially conferred status----a fetus may be human, but it is “pre-personal”, while a demented senior citizen may be deemed “post-personal”, and since only persons have rights, they have none. There is NO attempt to ground this in science.

amazon.com/Embryo-A-Defense-Human-Life/dp/0385522827

 

[cmlarose]

Did you say this to her directly? What do you mean by “lost it”? Did you go after her in the parking lot? It will be interesting for you to share the pastor’s reaction. About 15 years ago we had an individual in a former parish I attended who chased someone to their car calling them “heretic, etc!” The parish took out a restraining order against the chaser!

No i didn’t go after her, but i found myself getting angry, i think like Jesus did when he cleared out the moneychangers and said what i did about her being on the altar.

My guess is the pastor will not respond to me, so i’ll just watch and see if he took
any action by seeing if she’s still in liturgical ministry. If anything i’ll hear from her first.:banghead:

 

[steve_b]

Many atheists will tell you a zygote isn’t self-aware to feel pain. It’s hard to say for certain, by even a zygote is a life IMO.

In 9 months that zygote will have a family name with lineage from both mother and father… even if that person someday ultimately becomes an atheist. Some people who know the sex of their baby in utero name their child then. Putting some kind of irrational excuse to abort a zygote because they might not feel pain yet, doesn’t change the fact they are a human being. That zygote won’t become a dolphin. Sad to say, if it was a dolphin or an otter, in our screwed up society, it would have more rights than a human being…

 

[WingsOfEagles]

In 9 months that zygote will have a family name with lineage from both mother and father… even if that person someday ultimately becomes an atheist. Some people who know the sex of their baby in utero name their child then. Putting some kind of irrational excuse to abort a zygote because they might not feel pain yet, doesn’t change the fact they are a human being. That zygote won’t become a dolphin. Sad to say, if it was a dolphin or an otter, in our screwed up society, it would have more rights than a human being…

You don’t have to convince me.

 

[Stylites]

a visiting retired priest led us at Mass on Sat. 9-8 as ours was on vacation. He shared his dismay with what the Democratic Convention had to say about contraception, abortion and “gay rights.” (this was less than a minute of his homily) As i was listening my mind went to how brave he was and wondered what kind of reaction he’d get after Mass. Sure enough as i approached him to thank him for this truth, he was being accosted by ----- one of the most outspoken supporters of abortion and Obama supporter.

As i approached him, she left and i said how brave he was to say what he did. He immediately said that he had been wrong and shouldn’t have said anything, that he should have *“kept religion out of it.” *She had got to him with her divisive tongue spouting about *“separation of Church and State.” *I told him that he had done the right thing and we need to hear these truths from the pulpit. He was visibly rattled and said that the Republicans also supported abortion, so i told him that they do not and their platform specifically is against abortion (i wondered where he got that info from). i’m pretty sure he left that portion out of his homily at the later Masses that weekend.

As i was about to get in my car, she came down the sidewalk and i asked her what she thought about the homily. She said the bit about Church and State and then i found out where Fr. got the bit about the Republicans being in favor of abortion – she said Paul Ryan had said that he didn’t care one way or another about abortion, which i know is an outright lie. I told her that was totally untrue.

Then she said that i was “pro-birth” not pro-Life, which i replied with that i am pro-Life, as life begins at conception (fertilization). Things were getting heated now. I asked her if she had children and she said she had 3. i said well what if you had had abortion(s), what then? Her reply, *“that’s not the point.” *To which i said, *“it most certainly is the point. . . life begins at conception.” *i really don’t know what her point is as she didn’t say. As an aside, i wonder if she actually did have an abortion perhaps later in life for say child # 4.

As she got in her car, i sort of lost it and said that she should not be on the altar (she was a Eucharistic minister @ Mass & in the past has also been a lector). I am just so sick of people like her calling themselves Catholic when they are so public about their heresy! Please confront her about this and recuse her from any liturgical ministry at our parish.

( i emailed this to our parish priest and am awaiting his actions ).

Thoughts? Comments? Did i handle this appropriately?

No on both counts. It was inappropriate to tell her that she should not serve, and it was inappropriate to write to the priest asking him to recuse her from service.

 

[WingsOfEagles]

No on both counts. It was inappropriate to tell her that she should not serve, and it was inappropriate to write to the priest asking him to recuse her from service.

I notice you are listed as an “amateur Catholic”. I’m assuming this means new? OP’s question is not odd when you consider that EM’s never used to exist in the Catholic Church. Only Priests or Deacons were supposed to administer the Eucharist. Lay people are now allowed to become Eucharistic Ministers, but they should be people are properly disposed to do so. Someone with vocal beliefs that are this blatantly against both Catholic teaching and Christianity in general, should not be in a position where she is administering the body or blood of Christ.

 

[Stylites]

Many atheists will tell you a zygote isn’t self-aware to feel pain. It’s hard to say for certain, by even a zygote is a life IMO.

Sorry if I am misreading your post, but life is not a matter of opinion for Catholics.

 

[WingsOfEagles]

Sorry if I am misreading your post, but life is not a matter of opinion for Catholics.

You are because you have missed what I was commenting on several posts back. You will also notice that I am listed as Catholic, not atheist.

 

[WingsOfEagles]

When I said IMO, I meant as a Catholic versus the opinion of an atheist.

 

[Stylites]

OP’s question is not odd when you consider that EM’s never used to exist in the Catholic Church. Only Priests or Deacons were supposed to administer the Eucharist. Lay people are now allowed to become Eucharistic Ministers, but they should be people are properly disposed to do so. Someone with vocal beliefs that are this blatantly against both Catholic teaching and Christianity in general, should not be in a position where she is administering the body or blood of Christ.

Certainly all who serve God should be properly disposed, regardless of their vocation, but it isn’t my responsibility to question anyone’s disposition or to write judgmental and scandalous letters to the priest about my opinions of them.

We can all do things more appropriately. “Losing it” and making judgmental statements begs for more appropriateness. When things heat up to this point, then ego takes the driver’s seat and the good of the Body of Christ takes the back seat. The prudential and efficacious way would be to point out the Church’s position on the matter and ask the other to pray about it, since the goal is to build up the Body of Christ rather than to win an argument or purge the Altar Society of sinners or the lost or the confused.

 

[Stylites]

You are because you have missed what I was commenting on several posts back.

Thanks for the clarification.

 

[Stylites]

Kudos to both You and the Priest for speaking up. What you did was the right thing, and Yes I would bar her from the Altar. I would even take it one step further, and ANY democratic, abortion supporting Catholic, would get excommunicated. Period. No question asked, and No HOLY COMMUNION for you, until you change your stance, get the excommunication sentence lifted, confess and then come and RECEIVE. Until then, I would be excommunicating every single one of those Catholics who are VERY supportive and vocal about being pro-choice or pro abortionist. I may sound harsh, but frankly, I don’t give two cents. The Church needs to be cleaned up from this, and It needs to happen fast.

While abortion is certainly a terrible evil, and while there are unfortunately a lot of misinformed Catholics regarding this issue, you seriously might want to share your post with a vocations director to get his opinion of it.

 

[jwinch2]

The goal is to help change their minds, not just get them to shut up.

This is 100% true. I would add however that getting someone to shut up might have to be the first step, and for that particular person, the only step. If the priest is accosted after Mass, he is less likely to preach boldly, which is desperately needed. The particular person in this situation may not listen or be swayed, but someone else might.