Can a vocal Pro-abort be a Liturgical Minister?

[jwinch2]

No on both counts. It was inappropriate to tell her that she should not serve, and it was inappropriate to write to the priest asking him to recuse her from service.

The first part is true, but I strongly disagree with the second. The OP absolutely should contact the priest. The faithful have a right to not be scandalized when going to Mass and a visiting priest has the right to expect to preach the truth without being berated by someone after Mass. Having someone who openly dissents from Church teaching serving in the the capacity of an EMHC is a real problem, and the pastor needs to know about it. In addition, someone who would deliberately seek out a visiting priest, or any priest for that matter, and verbally berate him after Mass in the manner described is someone who definitely should not be held up as an example for others in the parish.

Others have made the point above that we are all sinners. This is of course, completely true. However, I would suggest that there is a difference between A) being a sinner, knowing this, going to confession, and working hard to address your sin and B) deliberately dissenting from Church teaching with no intent to repent. Scenario A represents what we might call faithful Catholics while scenario B represents a person who should not even be receiving Holy Communion, let alone distributing it to others. In addition, when most of us sin, we do not do so in a way that scandalizes the rest of our parish in the process.

This situation, as described, is far different in my view and needs to be handled accordingly.

 

[iloveangels]

a visiting retired priest led us at Mass on Sat. 9-8 as ours was on vacation. He shared his dismay with what the Democratic Convention had to say about contraception, abortion and “gay rights.” (this was less than a minute of his homily) As i was listening my mind went to how brave he was and wondered what kind of reaction he’d get after Mass. Sure enough as i approached him to thank him for this truth, he was being accosted by ----- one of the most outspoken supporters of abortion and Obama supporter.

As i approached him, she left and i said how brave he was to say what he did. He immediately said that he had been wrong and shouldn’t have said anything, that he should have *“kept religion out of it.” *She had got to him with her divisive tongue spouting about *“separation of Church and State.” *I told him that he had done the right thing and we need to hear these truths from the pulpit. He was visibly rattled and said that the Republicans also supported abortion, so i told him that they do not and their platform specifically is against abortion (i wondered where he got that info from). i’m pretty sure he left that portion out of his homily at the later Masses that weekend.

As i was about to get in my car, she came down the sidewalk and i asked her what she thought about the homily. She said the bit about Church and State and then i found out where Fr. got the bit about the Republicans being in favor of abortion – she said Paul Ryan had said that he didn’t care one way or another about abortion, which i know is an outright lie. I told her that was totally untrue.

Then she said that i was “pro-birth” not pro-Life, which i replied with that i am pro-Life, as life begins at conception (fertilization). Things were getting heated now. I asked her if she had children and she said she had 3. i said well what if you had had abortion(s), what then? Her reply, *“that’s not the point.” *To which i said, *“it most certainly is the point. . . life begins at conception.” *i really don’t know what her point is as she didn’t say. As an aside, i wonder if she actually did have an abortion perhaps later in life for say child # 4.

As she got in her car, i sort of lost it and said that she should not be on the altar (she was a Eucharistic minister @ Mass & in the past has also been a lector). I am just so sick of people like her calling themselves Catholic when they are so public about their heresy! Please confront her about this and recuse her from any liturgical ministry at our parish.

( i emailed this to our parish priest and am awaiting his actions ).

Thoughts? Comments? Did i handle this appropriately?

It all depends on what the pastor and the bishop will tolerate. Some of them tolerate goofy things. And if this lady will mouth off politically to the OP, she’ll most likely mouth off to other parishioners too.

If you are having problems, I’d recommend:

1. documenting what’s happening–names, dates, times, exactly what you see.
2. talking to the priest about exactly what you documented. Do not let him have your original documents. Take copies to the meeting.
3. IF that doesn’t work, try writing or calling the bishop’s office to relay the content of your documentation. Again, send copies. Keep your original documentation.

If that doesn’t work, and you’re still having the problem, well…about all you can do is offer it up and turn your attention elsewhere. This stuff happens, unfortunately. These people will answer to God for it, not you.

 

[iloveangels]

The first part is true, but I strongly disagree with the second. The OP absolutely should contact the priest. The faithful have a right to not be scandalized when going to Mass and a visiting priest has the right to expect to preach the truth without being berated by someone after Mass. Having someone who openly dissents from Church teaching serving in the the capacity of an EMHC is a real problem, and the pastor needs to know about it. In addition, someone who would deliberately seek out a visiting priest, or any priest for that matter, and verbally berate him after Mass in the manner described is someone who definitely should not be held up as an example for others in the parish.

Others have made the point above that we are all sinners. This is of course, completely true. However, I would suggest that there is a difference between A) being a sinner, knowing this, going to confession, and working hard to address your sin and B) deliberately dissenting from Church teaching with no intent to repent. Scenario A represents what we might call faithful Catholics while scenario B represents a person who should not even be receiving Holy Communion, let alone distributing it to others. In addition, when most of us sin, we do not do so in a way that scandalizes the rest of our parish in the process.

This situation, as described, is far different in my view and needs to be handled accordingly.

Personally, I find this all very droll, if you want to know the truth. Catholics need to learn to take some of this stuff for what it is, amateuristic nonsense. And much of it comes from naive and uneducated lay people with exaggerated senses of their own superiority.

EMHCs have one job to do. It doesn’t really matter what they say. The fact that they’re temporary manual help doesn’t give them any authority whatsoever. They’re volunteer temporary manual help.

PS, I am very aware that Catholics use the “I’m a sinner, everyone’s a sinner” argument all the time to bless off all kinds of stuff. But the fact of the matter is that bad behavior is bad behavior and no excuse changes that.

 

[jwinch2]

Personally, I find this all very droll, if you want to know the truth. Catholics need to learn to take some of this stuff for what it is, amateuristic nonsense. And much of it comes from naive and uneducated lay people with exaggerated senses of their own superiority.

I fail to see the humor in a priest being yelled at after Mass, particularly by an EMHC, for preaching on abortion and gay “marriage”.

 

[iloveangels]

I fail to see the humor in a priest being yelled at after Mass, particularly by an EMHC, for preaching on abortion and gay “marriage”.

Yelling at a priest is bad in general and should be avoided.

But it doesn’t sound like she was yelling out loud at a priest. It sounds like they might have had a direct conversation, which the OP heard about when she talked to him next.

I think the OP is probably upset that someone who has flaky opinions is an EMHC. But that goes on all over. People who use birth control, and do all kinds of things are EMHCs. There is no doctrinal, theological or moral test. It’s a temporary volunteer activity to do manual work for the parish. It’s not an official position or anything even remotely like that.

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My comment was much more general. I find the antics of some lay people in the church somewhat silly on occasion. And, it’s true that I don’t attach too much meaning to some of the antics I see, simply because these people have no authority whatsoever. It’s just noise.

 

[jwinch2]

And, it’s true that I don’t attach too much meaning to some of the antics I see, simply because these people have no authority whatsoever. It’s just noise.

I agree to a point. In this case, it seemed to directly affect the priest on the receiving end of the tirade, which I have a significant problem with. On one hand, yes it is just noise, but on the other hand, we should stand up for our priests and look after them. They should not be subjected to such behavior.

 

[april32010]

Certainly all who serve God should be properly disposed, regardless of their vocation, but it isn’t my responsibility to question anyone’s disposition or to write judgmental and scandalous letters to the priest about my opinions of them.

We can all do things more appropriately. “Losing it” and making judgmental statements begs for more appropriateness. When things heat up to this point, then ego takes the driver’s seat and the good of the Body of Christ takes the back seat. The prudential and efficacious way would be to point out the Church’s position on the matter and ask the other to pray about it, since the goal is to build up the Body of Christ rather than to win an argument or purge the Altar Society of sinners or the lost or the confused.

whats a altar society?

 

[iloveangels]

I agree to a point. In this case, it seemed to directly affect the priest on the receiving end of the tirade, which I have a significant problem with. On one hand, yes it is just noise, but on the other hand, we should stand up for our priests and look after them. They should not be subjected to such behavior.

He’s a grown up. He has to stand up for himself. And I hope he did, and the lady is in hot water now. She deserves to be told to sit down and be quiet until she learns how to behave. Being an EMHC is not a permanent office in the Church and it doesn’t give you any license to throw your weight around. At. All.

whats a altar society?

One of the many things they used to have before Vatican II. There are a few altar societies left, but they’re very rare today. Altar societies typically had parish women as members and they sewed and embroidered things for the Church, and took care of altar linens, the sacristy and the church decorations.

The person you’re replying to is using the term derisively, which is unfair and misleading.

 

[poche]

No a vocal pro-abort should not be a liturgical minister. They also should not be recieving Holy Communion if they are truly pro-abortion.

 

[Cristiano]

No a vocal pro-abort should not be a liturgical minister. They also should not be recieving Holy Communion if they are truly pro-abortion.

This is what Abp. John Myers thinks in regard to people that disagree with Church teachings.

Myers writes: elief about the permanence of marriage has been proposed infallibly by the ordinary universal Magisterium and defined by an Ecumenical Council and requires the assent of faith. It is my duty as your Archbishop to remind you that Catholics who do not accept the teaching of the Church on marriage and family (especially those who teach or act in private or public life contrary to the Church’s received tradition on marriage and family) by their own choice seriously harm their communion with Christ and His Church. I urge those not in communion with the Church regarding her teaching on marriage and family (or any other grave matter of faith) sincerely to re-examine their consciences, asking God for the grace of the Holy Spirit which “guides [us] to all truth” (John 16:13). If they continue to be unable to assent to or live the Church’s teaching in these matters, they must in all honesty and humility refrain from receiving Holy Communion until they can do so with integrity; to continue to receive Holy Communion while so dissenting would be objectively dishonest.

 

[iloveangels]

No a vocal pro-abort should not be a liturgical minister. They also should not be recieving Holy Communion if they are truly pro-abortion.

Neither should pro-birth control people, by the same reasoning. Nobody wants to talk about that.

 

[iloveangels]

No a vocal pro-abort should not be a liturgical minister. They also should not be recieving Holy Communion if they are truly pro-abortion.

This is what Abp. John Myers thinks in regard to people that disagree with Church teachings.

Myers writes: elief about the permanence of marriage has been proposed infallibly by the ordinary universal Magisterium and defined by an Ecumenical Council and requires the assent of faith. It is my duty as your Archbishop to remind you that Catholics who do not accept the teaching of the Church on marriage and family (especially those who teach or act in private or public life contrary to the Church’s received tradition on marriage and family) by their own choice seriously harm their communion with Christ and His Church. I urge those not in communion with the Church regarding her teaching on marriage and family (or any other grave matter of faith) sincerely to re-examine their consciences, asking God for the grace of the Holy Spirit which “guides [us] to all truth” (John 16:13). If they continue to be unable to assent to or live the Church’s teaching in these matters, they must in all honesty and humility refrain from receiving Holy Communion until they can do so with integrity; to continue to receive Holy Communion while so dissenting would be objectively dishonest.

Neither should divorced people or people using birth control then either, according to this statement. Nobody wants to talk about those instances, though. Even though they’re issues “regarding marriage and family” teaching. There are a great many “liturgical ministers” out there in these two categories.

BTW, this statement is very vague. Catholics would get a lot farther if they were more specific about what they’re talking about, and then if they took it more seriously.