Can all main Apostolic Churches (CC, EO, OO) be at once the true Church w/out being in communion with Each-other?

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Is it a heresy to believe that God the Holy Spirit remained within all these communions as the guiding principle, just as he was with the undivided Church of the first centuries? That He protects the truth in them according to each one’s abilities, circumstances, nature and/or specific experience and history? Is it ok to believe that while they broke formally and externally from each other, God the Holy Spirit “rejected” their attempts at dividing the Body of Christ and maintained unity, though unrecognized by them? Is it permissible to look upon the maintenance of orthodox faith in them despite loss of communion (w/each other) for at least a millennium, and a millennium and a half, as proof that God the Holy Spirit retained their unity?

Views from Christians of these traditions and all others who accept the Apostolic/Historic understanding of the Church as a mystical, supernatural reality, ruled by God the Holy Spirit are welcome.
 
Is it a heresy to believe that God the Holy Spirit remained within all these communions as the guiding principle, just as he was with the undivided Church of the first centuries? That He protects the truth in them according to each one’s abilities, circumstances, nature and/or specific experience and history? Is it ok to believe that while they broke formally and externally from each other, God the Holy Spirit “rejected” their attempts at dividing the Body of Christ and maintained unity, though unrecognized by them? Is it permissible to look upon the maintenance of orthodox faith in them despite loss of communion (w/each other) for at least a millennium, and a millennium and a half, as proof that God the Holy Spirit retained their unity?

Views from Christians of these traditions and all others who accept the Apostolic/Historic understanding of the Church as a mystical, supernatural reality, ruled by God the Holy Spirit are welcome.
The protection of the Holy Spirit was promised to the true Church, which I believe is the Catholic Church. Any congregation that breaks off from the true Church loses that protection. This does not mean that the teachings of that congregation will all be wrong. It simply means that its teachings are not guaranteed the infallibility granted to the true Church of Christ. I can’t see how we can truthfully say that the Holy Spirit is protecting and guiding all the different churches when they teach contradictory doctrines. The Catholic Church, for example, teaches the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist. Some protestant denominations don’t. They can’t be both true at the same time.

Now, what I said should not be taken as a condemnation of the individual protestants themselves. I think that God is good, and that the Holy Spirit dwells in the souls of the just. Therefore, those protestants, who honestly believe that the church that they belong to is the true Church, who keep the commandments and love God with all their heart, continue to enjoy God’s friendship. In catholic language, we say that they, too, are “invisible members” of the Catholic Church.

Note that the Catholic Eastern Churches are in communion with the Catholic Church; so they are not really protestants. They, too, enjoy the protection of the Holy Spirit.
 
The protection of the Holy Spirit was promised to the true Church, which I believe is the Catholic Church. Any congregation that breaks off from the true Church loses that protection. This does not mean that the teachings of that congregation will all be wrong. It simply means that its teachings are not guaranteed the infallibility granted to the true Church of Christ. I can’t see how we can truthfully say that the Holy Spirit is protecting and guiding all the different churches when they teach contradictory doctrines. The Catholic Church, for example, teaches the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist. Some protestant denominations don’t. They can’t be both true at the same time.

Now, what I said should not be taken as a condemnation of the individual protestants themselves. I think that God is good, and that the Holy Spirit dwells in the souls of the just. Therefore, those protestants, who honestly believe that the church that they belong to is the true Church, who keep the commandments and love God with all their heart, continue to enjoy God’s friendship. In catholic language, we say that they, too, are “invisible members” of the Catholic Church.

Note that the Catholic Eastern Churches are in communion with the Catholic Church; so they are not really protestants. They, too, enjoy the protection of the Holy Spirit.
Yes, but I was referring to the Apostolic communions, Catholic and Orthodox (both Eastern and Oriental) not Protestant groups that were not founded by the Apostles.

Is it compatible with Catholic faith to believe that God protects the three Differently? For example- With the Orientals, he has not permitted them to develop doctrine further than they had it when they broke away, The Eastern Orthodox have also not developed it further than it was a thousand years ago, Our Church has made formal binding declarations since because we retain a magisterium with the unity of the Apostolic see of Peter. The Contraception and Divorce Qs in the Eastern Orthodox are still being discussed albeit slowly (even while some are practicing them and teaching them differently) and in the end, I doubt the definitive position will differ with those of the CC and OO on the matters.

Can a catholic believe that God has protected them by “stunting” the development of doctrine further after breaking with the Apostolic See so as not to contaminate it?

Peace!
 
I don’t think they all have the protection from the Holy Spirit because even though similar in teachings, not 100% the same. For this reason we are not in full communion. One teaching we Catholics have for example is that we have an Infallible Pope (when defining matters of faith). The Orthodox call that heresy. Isn’t that differing in teachings? If so, then one or the other lacks the protection.

I would say that only we have such protection because we see in Matthew 16:18 that the gates of hell will not prevail against the Church founded upon Peter. The Gates of hell according to our fathers, among other things is Heresy. Heresy will not prevail over the Church founded on Peter. Where the successor to Peter is our Pontiff. Even though the Church as a whole is infallible according to our fathers, the head of it is the Pope. If you lack the Pope you lack infallibility. That is just my opinion, maybe someone else can address the question in a differently.
 
Mary gave birth to only one son, and his name was Jesus. Jesus was the Christ. Christ had one body. His body is the Church. There can be only one.

Mary had one son, Jesus Christ. Only one. Any who claim to be other sons of Mary, or a variation on the one son of mary, or a different manifestation of the one son of Mary, is not the son of Mary. They may imiatate the Son of Mary. They may take on attributes of the Son of Mary. But they are not the son of Mary.

There can be only one.

-Tim-
 
I do believe that they have the protection of the Holy Spirit. Pope John Paul II called the Orthodox Churches the other “lung of the Church”. They also have valid sacraments, and valid post-schism saints such as Seraphim of Sarov who have been recognised by the Catholic Church.

If a Church is Catholic in theology, Apostolic in origin and upholds Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition etc. then as far as I am concerned it has the Holy Spirit and I shall not breath so much as a word against it.

😃
 
Yes, but I was referring to the Apostolic communions, Catholic and Orthodox (both Eastern and Oriental) not Protestant groups that were not founded by the Apostles.

Is it compatible with Catholic faith to believe that God protects the three Differently? For example- With the Orientals, he has not permitted them to develop doctrine further than they had it when they broke away, The Eastern Orthodox have also not developed it further than it was a thousand years ago, Our Church has made formal binding declarations since because we retain a magisterium with the unity of the Apostolic see of Peter. The Contraception and Divorce Qs in the Eastern Orthodox are still being discussed albeit slowly (even while some are practicing them and teaching them differently) and in the end, I doubt the definitive position will differ with those of the CC and OO on the matters.

Can a catholic believe that God has protected them by “stunting” the development of doctrine further after breaking with the Apostolic See so as not to contaminate it?

Peace!
OK, so let me talk more specifically of the Orthodox and Oriental churches. Like the protestants they were part of the One True Church until they broke off from the Catholic Church. When they separated from the Catholic Church by not recognizing the Primacy of the Supreme Pontiff, then they lost their unity with the Catholic Church and, in consequence, the protection of the Holy Spirit that belongs only to the One, True Church.

Although the leaders of these churches had Apostolic Succession prior to their breaking up with Rome, I cannot say the same of succeeding leaders after the schism (since their Orders will no longer be valid). I think that these churches had the protection of the Holy Spirit up to, but not after the schism.

Although I look favorably at our Orthodox and Oriental brothers, and although they were keeping the faith of the early centuries, the truth is that the Church is to be for all time, and must clarify and define the Faith for all generations. I am not familiar with the details of Orthodox and Oriental Faith, and what their attitude is toward certain defined teachings of the Catholic Church such as, for example, the Immaculate Conception of Mary. The Catholic Church has defined it as a dogma, but I do not know if they accept it as an article of faith, or whether they look at it only as a pious belief. Does anybody know?
 
Is it a heresy to believe that God the Holy Spirit remained within all these communions as the guiding principle, just as he was with the undivided Church of the first centuries? That He protects the truth in them according to each one’s abilities, circumstances, nature and/or specific experience and history? Is it ok to believe that while they broke formally and externally from each other, God the Holy Spirit “rejected” their attempts at dividing the Body of Christ and maintained unity, though unrecognized by them? Is it permissible to look upon the maintenance of orthodox faith in them despite loss of communion (w/each other) for at least a millennium, and a millennium and a half, as proof that God the Holy Spirit retained their unity?

Views from Christians of these traditions and all others who accept the Apostolic/Historic understanding of the Church as a mystical, supernatural reality, ruled by God the Holy Spirit are welcome.
Yes thats essentially a form of the ‘Branch Theory’ advocated by high anglicans and repeatedly condemned by the church.
 
I do believe that they have the protection of the Holy Spirit. Pope John Paul II called the Orthodox Churches the other “lung of the Church”. They also have valid sacraments, and valid post-schism saints such as Seraphim of Sarov who have been recognised by the Catholic Church.
Are you sure Pope John Paul II wasn’t talking of our Eastern Catholic churches as the other “lung of the church”? These churches have many of the customs and traditions of the Orthodox church, but they are truly catholic because their patriarchs recognize the primacy of the Roman Pontiff. Some of these Eastern churches were also formerly Orthodox churches, but they have rejoined the Catholic Church and are now in full communion with the Catholic Church. There are others who have not joined yet, but we are praying that eventually they will.
If a Church is Catholic in theology, Apostolic in origin and upholds Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition etc. then as far as I am concerned it has the Holy Spirit and I shall not breath so much as a word against it. 😃
Yes, but if there is an Orthodox church that does not recognize the Primacy of the Roman Pontiff, how can you say that it is fully upholding Sacred Tradition?
 
OK, so let me talk more specifically of the Orthodox and Oriental churches. Like the protestants they were part of the One True Church until they broke off from the Catholic Church. When they separated from the Catholic Church by not recognizing the Primacy of the Supreme Pontiff, then they lost their unity with the Catholic Church and, in consequence, the protection of the Holy Spirit that belongs only to the One, True Church.
If you want to get technical it was Cardinal Humbert, not even the Pope himself, who wrote, signed and laid that stinking pile of papal bull on the high altar of Aghia Sophia and stormed out, and it was the weeping Orthodox Deacon who chased him out the door of the Cathedral begging him to take it back! And all of this because the Ecumenical Patriarch kept putting off their meeting, and the papal legates felt that they were being treated with disrespect. And the poor last Orthodox Pope died before ever even hearing the news of this, and then guess what?! Cardinal Humbert was elected Pope. So, if we’re getting technical, it was Rome who broke communion and fomented the Schism. The east simply reacted in kind after learning that the Pope would not let go of his new found doctrine of double procession. Along, with many other misuses that had snuck up in the Roman Church’s traditions.

Although the leaders of these churches had Apostolic Succession prior to their breaking up with Rome, I cannot say the same of succeeding leaders after the schism (since their Orders will no longer be valid). I think that these churches had the protection of the Holy Spirit up to, but not after the schism.
**If you deny the validity of our Orthodox Orders on the grounds that the Orthodox reject that the Pope of Rome has Universal Jurisdiction and infallibility in and of himself when speaking ex-cathedra, then you deny that we can even be saved. This alone should get you banned from this sight, since I get flagged for simply defending Orthodoxy here. You have no understanding, obviously, of the historical problems that lead to the west considering the Pope “Supreme Pontiff” and infallible. During that time Rome was the center of the world. The Roman Empire was the Empire of most of the world. We all know that Constantine moved the capitol of the Empire to Constantinople, but the See of Rome kept its original Primacy of Honor. Then Rome fell. Having no emperor, and a language barrier between the latin speaking west and the greek speaking east, the Church of the West could only look in one direction for leadership, to the Pope of Rome, the Patriarch of the west. At this time he began to assume for himself titles such as “Ponitfex Maximus” (originally a title meant for the Emperor). This, along with such fraudulent documents as the “Donation of Constantine” began to lead the Pope to heap on himself more and more power, mostly out of political necessity. This was the root of the schism. (Many details left out) **

Although I look favorably at our Orthodox and Oriental brothers, and although they were keeping the faith of the early centuries, the truth is that the Church is to be for all time, and must clarify and define the Faith for all generations. I am not familiar with the details of Orthodox and Oriental Faith, and what their attitude is toward certain defined teachings of the Catholic Church such as, for example, the Immaculate Conception of Mary. The Catholic Church has defined it as a dogma, but I do not know if they accept it as an article of faith, or whether they look at it only as a pious belief. Does anybody know?
As far as what the Orthodox believe about the RC teaching of the Immaculate Conception of Mary, we believe this to be a novel doctrine and a foreign teaching to Apostolic Christianity. There was only one immaculate conception ever needed for the salvation of man, that of Christ. Again, this doctrine of the Immaculate conception comes from a mislead view of Augustine’s teaching on original sin, which the Orthodox do not see as the guilt of Adam being passed down onto all humanity, but rather that because of Adam’s sin death entered into the world, and this is what we inherit from Adam; not the guilt of his sin. Therefore there would be no need for Mary to have been immaculately concieved. This also, brings up another point. That would be the legalistic view of the west of Christ’s sacrifice on the Cross. Of course Christ died so that our sins could be forgiven, but He also died to destroy death. Death thought it had taken a man, and then it met God face-to-face and could not hold Him. Christ not only washed away our (personal) sins on the Cross, but He also removed from us the Original Curse of Adam, namely Death. Take a look at the Icon of the Descent to Hades. Christ is raising Adam and Eve from their tombs, i.e. from the curse that they brought on mankind, death itself.

The Sinner,
Josh
Most Holy Mother of God save us!
 
Hi OrthodoxJosh,

I have no time to answer all your responses, but there are a few that I really must address:
If you deny the validity of our Orthodox Orders on the grounds that the Orthodox reject that the Pope of Rome has Universal Jurisdiction and infallibility in and of himself when speaking ex-cathedra, then you deny that we can even be saved.
This is a perfect non-sequitur. I never denied the possibility of your salvation. Let me tell you what I deny: I deny that all Catholics go to Heaven; I also deny that all non-Catholics go to Hell. I believe that Our Lord Jesus Christ came to save all men, and that all Christians have a chance to go to Heaven. If you are a non-Catholic through no fault of your own, and you love God with all your heart and your neighbor as yourself, and you accept Christ as your Lord and Savior, then you are not truly outside the fold and are also redeemed by our Savior. Although you are not formally and officially a member of the Catholic Church, you are- whether you realize it or not - an “invisible member” of the Catholic Church. So, please do not equate my denial of the validity of the Orthodox Orders with the denial of the possibility of your salvation.
As far as what the Orthodox believe about the RC teaching of the Immaculate Conception of Mary, we believe this to be a novel doctrine and a foreign teaching to Apostolic Christianity.
The doctrine regarding the privilege of the Immaculate Conception was a newly defined dogma, but not a new belief nor a new invention by the Pope. It was contained implicitly in Holy Scripture, and more explicitly in the writings of the ancient Fathers. I have no time nor room in this Forum to give you details of the evidences, but you may find them outlined in Pope Pius IX’s Bull Ineffabilis Deus. Here is the link: papalencyclicals.net/Pius09/p9ineff.htm

God bless!
 
Just to clear things up, Catholics DO believe that Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox (correct me if im wrong) do have valid orders. Eastern Orthodox have valid sacraments such as the Eucharist. Oriental Orthodox I believe so too but I may need to double check just to be sure…

Whereas none of the protestants have valid orders and lack some sacraments (like the Eucharist and Confession).
 
Just to clear things up, Catholics DO believe that Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox (correct me if im wrong) do have valid orders. Eastern Orthodox have valid sacraments such as the Eucharist. Oriental Orthodox I believe so too but I may need to double check just to be sure…

Whereas none of the protestants have valid orders and lack some sacraments (like the Eucharist and Confession).
I just googled this and I think you are right. The Orders in the Orthodox Churches are considered valid. I stand corrected on that one.
 
Is it a heresy to believe that God the Holy Spirit remained within all these communions as the guiding principle, just as he was with the undivided Church of the first centuries? That He protects the truth in them according to each one’s abilities, circumstances, nature and/or specific experience and history? Is it ok to believe that while they broke formally and externally from each other, God the Holy Spirit “rejected” their attempts at dividing the Body of Christ and maintained unity, though unrecognized by them? Is it permissible to look upon the maintenance of orthodox faith in them despite loss of communion (w/each other) for at least a millennium, and a millennium and a half, as proof that God the Holy Spirit retained their unity?

Views from Christians of these traditions and all others who accept the Apostolic/Historic understanding of the Church as a mystical, supernatural reality, ruled by God the Holy Spirit are welcome.
The answer to your question is; what is the teaching of the Holy Catholic Church? It alone has the sucessor of Peter:) Also, you forgot the Assyrian Church of the East in your list.
 
Yes, they are. We are in schism with one another… Which is different from heresy
. I’ve seen godly people and miracles worked in non-Catholics. This is not to say they have they have the fullness of the faith .
 
OK, so let me talk more specifically of the Orthodox and Oriental churches. Like the protestants they were part of the One True Church until they broke off from the Catholic Church. When they separated from the Catholic Church by not recognizing the Primacy of the Supreme Pontiff, then they lost their unity with the Catholic Church and, in consequence, the protection of the Holy Spirit that belongs only to the One, True Church.

Although the leaders of these churches had Apostolic Succession prior to their breaking up with Rome, I cannot say the same of succeeding leaders after the schism (since their Orders will no longer be valid). I think that these churches had the protection of the Holy Spirit up to, but not after the schism.
The view you seem to hold is the Cyprian view. St Cyprian taught that when unity is broken from the one catholic unity all grace of the Holy Spirit is lost. Pope Steven and St Cyprian had major disagreements over this matter, particularly when it came to baptism outside of catholic unity. But it isn’t really accurate to say that the issue was about baptism only. It had to do with the correct catholic understanding of what “schism” really is.

The laws set down with regard to schismatics by the 1st Ecumenical Council very clearly say that schismatics are to be understood being a part of the one church. They do not lose their priesthood nor any of the holy sacraments by virtue of their schism. This was the view of Pope Steven and it was fully affirmed at the 1st Ecumenical Council. I’m pretty sure that this is still the official view of the Roman Catholic Church and it is why Rome recognizes all the sacraments of the Eastern Orthodox Churches. In short the Church has said that the Cyprian view is not correct. This should be the answer to this threads question. The answer is “yes”, all apostolic churches are a part of the one church even if they are not in communion.

The Cyprian view has revived itself in many Eastern Churches however. Since the East/West Schism many Eastern Churches hold to it. I held this view myself for most of the time that I’ve been a Christian, but I was was wrong, and (at least this one time) Rome was right. The main reason I was confused by this issue was because I thought it was very clear that St Basil the Great was in full agreement with the Cyprian view. Brother [user]mardukm[/user] helped me understand what St Basil was really talking about and now I see that it is an (easily made) error it think that St Basil sided with St Cyprian, he did not!

Peace!
 
The answer to your question is; what is the teaching of the Holy Catholic Church? It alone has the sucessor of Peter:) Also, you forgot the Assyrian Church of the East in your list.
Does this Church (Assyrian Church of the East) not belong to either the Orientals or E.O? Is their a fourth group of Apostolic Churches?
 
The view you seem to hold is the Cyprian view. St Cyprian taught that when unity is broken from the one catholic unity all grace of the Holy Spirit is lost. Pope Steven and St Cyprian had major disagreements over this matter, particularly when it came to baptism outside of catholic unity. But it isn’t really accurate to say that the issue was about baptism only. It had to do with the correct catholic understanding of what “schism” really is.

The laws set down with regard to schismatics by the 1st Ecumenical Council very clearly say that schismatics are to be understood being a part of the one church. They do not lose their priesthood nor any of the holy sacraments by virtue of their schism. This was the view of Pope Steven and it was fully affirmed at the 1st Ecumenical Council. I’m pretty sure that this is still the official view of the Roman Catholic Church and it is why Rome recognizes all the sacraments of the Eastern Orthodox Churches. In short the Church has said that the Cyprian view is not correct. This should be the answer to this threads question. The answer is “yes”, all apostolic churches are a part of the one church even if they are not in communion.

The Cyprian view has revived itself in many Eastern Churches however. Since the East/West Schism many Eastern Churches hold to it. I held this view myself for most of the time that I’ve been a Christian, but I was was wrong, and (at least this one time) Rome was right. The main reason I was confused by this issue was because I thought it was very clear that St Basil the Great was in full agreement with the Cyprian view. Brother [user]mardukm[/user] helped me understand what St Basil was really talking about and now I see that it is an (easily made) error it think that St Basil sided with St Cyprian, he did not!

Peace!
Dear JohnVIII,

I have already previously admitted (Post #13) that my idea that the Orders in the Orthodox Churches were not valid, was incorrect. The fact that the Orthodox and Oriental Churches have Apostolic Succession means that their sacraments (including Orders) are valid. I am accepting that now. HOWEVER, I am still not sure whether those churches that are not in communion with Rome have the full protection of the Holy Spirit. I think that is an altogether different question. I agree with ChrisRedfield (Post #4), that if all these churches have the protection of the Holy Spirit, then they would be acknowledging the Roman Pontiff as infallible (a defined dogma of the Catholic Church). But they are not. Therefore, they do not have the protection of the Holy Spirit.

Incidentally, I must commend the intelligence of the posters in this thread. I am enjoying this. Thank you all!

Best,
Rom422
 
Does this Church (Assyrian Church of the East) not belong to either the Orientals or E.O? Is their a fourth group of Apostolic Churches?
It is in communion with neither the Eastern Orthododox nor the Oriental Orthodox. They broke communion with the other Churches at the time of the Third Ecumenical Council.
 
HOWEVER, I am still not sure whether those churches that are not in communion with Rome have the full protection of the Holy Spirit. I think that is an altogether different question. I agree with ChrisRedfield (Post #4), that if all these churches have the protection of the Holy Spirit, then they would be acknowledging the Roman Pontiff as infallible (a defined dogma of the Catholic Church). But they are not. Therefore, they do not have the protection of the Holy Spirit.
Dear Rom422,

Wow, at first I would be inclined to say “who can know who does or does not have the full protection of the Holy Spirit”. As Christ said, “The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit”. But I curious to know how you can tie this to those who accept Roman Dogma.

I personally don’t accept much of the Roman claims to special powers via St Peter, but so that we can discuss this I will grant that every claim Rome makes to St Peter is 100% true. So let’s start at the beginning.

Jesus asked St Peter, ‘who do you say that I am?’, Peter answered, ‘the Christ, the Son of the living God’, and Christ said, ‘flesh and blood has not reviled this unto you, but My Father, which is in Heaven’. Ok, I can see the logic in thinking that Peter himself would be in trouble with the Holy Spirit if he personally denied what God reveled to him, but if another man heard Peter’s testimony and accepted Christ as the Son of God, but he did so NOT because Peter “said so”, but ONLY because it sounded right to him. Would this man not have the full protection of the Holy Spirit because he accepted the truth for a reason that did not have to do with the person of St Peter himself? If yet another man heard the testimony of St Peter but had no reason to accept it but did so only because St Peter said so, would this man then have the full protection of the Holy Spirit since he simply accepted the truth on the word of St Peter alone?

It seems to me that Roman Catholic’s are devoted to Christ through St Peter as the Rock of the Church. I don’t have a problem with that, but I see it as one way to go, but for me not the only way nor even the best way. Now here’s the step that I would like you to explain to me: How is it that the full protection of the Holy Spirit is only for those who do it the Roman Catholic way?

I think that this is just another case of how so many churches (among those churches that claim that their’s is the only true church) try to make some sort of exclusive claim to the Holy Spirit that they say no other church has. When, in the book of the Acts of the Apostles, it is said that the Holy Spirit came down upon gentile believers to show to the Jews that they do not have exclusive rights to the Holy Spirit. I think that to claim anything exclusive of the Holy Spirit is an error. The Orthodox have made this error too. Has Rome ever declared “infallibly” that the Roman Church has some sort of exclusivity of the Holy Spirit?
 
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