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FaithofAbraham
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John 1:1 is often used to magically make it seem like the human Jesus was there with God eternally.
When you and I both agree that this human spirit/flesh nature wasn’t there eternally, God made in come into being, created it, whatever as something apart from God and then took on that human aspect.
Rip all the mystery out of that and you have God creating a human, then God dwelling in that human. As with any other prophet. Jesus was a unique human in that he was resurrected from the dead in a womb, then resurrected from the dead in a tomb. But he started out being created according to the flesh as the child of David, as Romans clearly states.
Romans 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
So you can call that eternally-existing God’s Word Jesus if you want, but there was a real human created apart from that living as a child and a man before God went to dwell in him and speak through him.
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inJESUS
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FaithofAbraham
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I’ve agreed with some Catholics that there is a lot of symbolism to Mary. If she was a Levite, Jesus would be like the new priesthood coming from the old. She was also like the Garden of Eden:
Genesis 2:7-8 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.
The Quran says Jesus was made from dust like Adam, I have said Jesus was David’s child resurrected from dust and placed into Virgin Mary, like Adam was made from dust and placed in the Virgin Garden.
David’s child was sown in corruption, dishonor, and weakness with Bathsheba because he had Uriah killed to have her. So the child died for David sin.
1 Corinthians 15:42-45 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
So the child who died for David’s shameful sin was resurrected into a womb and raised again into glory as Jesus the Prophet, who died again for the shameful sin of all Israel and was resurrected into even greater glory as Jesus the Messiah, like Melchizdek made like the Son of God in the womb without a mother or father, but being resurrected into the womb of a virgin…
Is all that really innovation alien to scriptures? Or is that what scriptures have been saying all along?
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Lev23
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#1.Allah was first god of all the Pagan gods in Mecca, then it replaced them all-hence----“There is no god but Allah.”
#2. As far as your statement of the God of Israel doing alot of “destroying” in the OT and Revelation. Who is the potter and who is the clay?
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inJESUS
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FaithofAbraham
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Then you are saying Jesus did not have a human soul, which is the thing that gives him a human nature? If so then you are saying Jesus was not human at all.
Does the Bible ever say God does not judge the soul of Jesus?
I believe it just means that David would be a servant of his own human son the Messiah.
But since you believe it means Jesus is the Creator, how can Jesus be David’s son if He is His creator, since Romans says he is of David’s flesh? You say this voids the possibility of Jesus being David’s immediate son, but you don’t explain how being David’s grandson+ would be any different.
Romans 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
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inJESUS
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dessert
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As long as they don’t call Allah- Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
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inJESUS
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FaithofAbraham
What is your view on the Holy Spirit in Islam? is it angel Gabriel?
What is your view on the Holy Spirit in Islam? is it angel Gabriel?
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FaithofAbraham
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But does Jesus have a human soul? In the previous post you just said, “Every human soul will be judged.”
Hebrews 5:7 says Jesus prayed to God to save him from death. In John 5:30 Jesus says he can’t do anything by himself. So if Jesus is still subordinate to the Father God, and he has a human soul, and you say all human souls will be judged, why do you think that the human soul of Jesus will not also be judged by Father God?
David said his son wouldn’t return to him in his life, he would go to him in death. So that wouldn’t mean David’s son couldn’t be resurrected after David was dead.
When David is resurrected in the afterlife he is going to serve Jesus no matter what.
I don’t think it is alien at all, according to all the support for it and his likeness to Adam as described in Corinthians. It fits like a glove. Let’s see it again:
1 Corinthians 15:42-45 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
This is saying that Jesus was sown in corruption, dishonor, and weakness which is how David’s son was sown arising from his sin with Bathsheba. In a natural body. Then Jesus was resurrected in glory through Mary, still to a human body but not in shame. Then he was resurrected again to even more glory from the tomb.
What does it matter if the flesh of Jesus was created from Mary’s body or David’s body? He would still be the offspring of David. If you say Jesus created David then he also created Mary but was born to her anyway, if you say he was created from Mary’s flesh. So what would be the difference between the two, either way he would be created from the flesh of one he created. So that seems to be an irrelevant reason for discounting the he could be David’s own son.
Wasn’t he the Lord of Mary too? How can he be Mary’s Lord but not her son as well? Just swap David with Mary and you still have the same problem. So that is irrelevant to the situation as well, you still have the same riddle with Mary.
Unless you see it as I do, that David serves even his own son because he is king over everyone. Doesn’t have to be God incarnate to do that. Then there is no riddle, it’s a statement saying that David’s son is Messiah and everyone serves him even David.
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inJESUS
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FaithofAbraham
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But Jesus had a human soul and flesh and was tempted in all ways to sin as we are.
Hebrews 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
He could have decided to lust or anything else at any time, since he was a human regardless of having God dwell in him. That means he could have told God to get lost at any time and do what he wanted, he wasn’t a robot. But he stayed close to God instead. So why couldn’t it be that God judged his human soul and deemed him innocent of sin?
It seems your doctrine kind of disregards the struggle and triumph Jesus had to endure to remain without sin because he was a human tempted as we are. If Jesus was just a God come to earth what kind of glory is that since God is perfect no matter what? On the other hand Jesus could sin, he just chose not to.
David never said his son wouldn’t return to life, only that he wouldn’t return to him. Were there any cases of a virgin birth before Jesus? Why do you put a restriction on what I say – never happened before so it couldn’t happen with Jesus – but allow it for the virgin birth?
I think Mary was a Levite not of Judah.
What I’m saying is if your belief that Mary was his mother in both womb and flesh – there MUST be flesh from David’s line somewhere for him to be Messiah – you would still have the same problem of the creator of the mother also being the son. The only way you can get out of that is to say Mary isn’t his mother.
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Selene
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As InJesus pointed out, St. John was a Jew. He was not a Gentile. And it was St. John who wrote that the Word was God and the Word became flesh. Therefore, this is not a Gentile influence.
By the way, you have not answered my previous question. In your Qur’an, Allah refers to himself in the PLURAL tense. Allah refers himself as “WE” instead of “I,” making himself plural instead of only one god. How do you explain this? Why does Allah refer to himself in the plural tense?
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FaithofAbraham
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Exodus says Moses would be God instead of God. The Gentile way might be to say Moses turned into God, since all the major Gentile mythologies seem to have demigods, from Egyptian to Roman, so it would follow that pattern.
The Jewish way might be to say, Moses was given the power of God and spoke the Word of God as a prophet, and so the Word of God became flesh in Moses. But Moses wasn’t God. Same with Jesus.
I think maybe they are the living creatures of Ezekiel and Revelation with God at His throne that are seen as a Lion, Ox, Man, Eagle. While Jesus is seen as a Lamb in Revelation.
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Lepanto
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Selene
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Show me the chapter and verse in the Book of Exodus that actually says that Moses would be God.
My Muslim friend, this is what your Qur’an says:
Sura 15:26 And certainly WE created man of clay that gives forth sound, of black mud fashioned in shape,
God created Adam in the beginning… The creation happened at the beginning of time - not at the end of the world. And here, we have Allah referring to himself in the plural sense… Now, answer these questions:
- Do you that believe there is only ONE Creator, who is Allah OR do you believe that Allah, the Ox, Lion, Man, and the Eagle were all Creators?
- If you believe that there is only one Creator in the beginning of time, then who else was Allah referring to when he said, WE created man?
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FaithofAbraham
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Exodus 4:16 And he shall be thy spokesman unto the people: and he shall be, even he shall be to thee instead of a mouth, and thou (MOSES) shalt be to him (AARON) instead of God.
I believe that the beasts God created first before Adam included cherubim, and they were helpers. Satan was supposed to be a servant to Adam too, but ended up being his master.
Genesis 1:25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
Genesis 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made…
Ezekiel 28:13-14 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
Ezekiel 1:10 As for the likeness of their faces, they four had the face of a man, and the face of a lion, on the right side: and they four had the face of an ox on the left side; they four also had the face of an eagle.
Ezekiel 10:8-9 And there appeared in the cherubims the** form of a man’s hand** under their wings. And when I looked, behold the four wheels by the cherubims, one wheel by one cherub, and another wheel by another cherub: and the appearance of the wheels was as the colour of a beryl stone.
Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
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StBenMom
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You know something FaithofAbraham??? I really pray that you stop pulling scripture out of a Christian/Catholic bible just to be argumentative. You take things WAY out of context and, actually, end up defending Christianity/Catholicism, instead of anything else you’re trying to prove. So, take a few hours and actually READ what you keep “quoting”. My feeling is, as much time as you spend reading the bible, is you’re afraid to admit that it’s correct. You NEVER simply answer a question on these forums…EVER. The question is :“Can Allah be called Father”. Your answer should be one of the following:
“Yes He can because______________” OR
“No He can’t because______________”
Along with, perhaps, a few selections from the QU’RAN (Not the Bible) to back up your claim. No one here asked you to interpet Holy Scripture for us. We have Jesus, The Apostles, the ECFs, our Cardinals, our Bishops and Archbishops, our parish priests, our catechism teachers and, most of all, our Holy Father in Rome to do that for us. I heard a phrase once that applies somewhat to you and others doing the same. It goes something like “Satan wants Christ and his followers to fail. He wants the Church to fail. No other faith has been persecuted so much as the Catholic faith because Satan doesn’t want anyone to know the Truth” Who are you working for? Bottom line… most Roman Catholics don’t really listen when a Muslim tries to tell Roman Catholics what Roman Catholics believe and what is in a Roman Catholic bible. I am not trying to be rude. I am simply tiring of you not answering DIRECT questions with DIRECT answers. Please give it a try, will you. We want to hear YOUR beliefs explained. We don’t want you to explain OUR beliefs to us. They’re OUR beliefs. That’s why we’re ALREADY Roman Catholic/Protestant/Orthodox (Christian…believers in CHRIST, JESUS)
Peace
“Yes He can because______________” OR
“No He can’t because______________”
Along with, perhaps, a few selections from the QU’RAN (Not the Bible) to back up your claim. No one here asked you to interpet Holy Scripture for us. We have Jesus, The Apostles, the ECFs, our Cardinals, our Bishops and Archbishops, our parish priests, our catechism teachers and, most of all, our Holy Father in Rome to do that for us. I heard a phrase once that applies somewhat to you and others doing the same. It goes something like “Satan wants Christ and his followers to fail. He wants the Church to fail. No other faith has been persecuted so much as the Catholic faith because Satan doesn’t want anyone to know the Truth” Who are you working for? Bottom line… most Roman Catholics don’t really listen when a Muslim tries to tell Roman Catholics what Roman Catholics believe and what is in a Roman Catholic bible. I am not trying to be rude. I am simply tiring of you not answering DIRECT questions with DIRECT answers. Please give it a try, will you. We want to hear YOUR beliefs explained. We don’t want you to explain OUR beliefs to us. They’re OUR beliefs. That’s why we’re ALREADY Roman Catholic/Protestant/Orthodox (Christian…believers in CHRIST, JESUS)
Peace
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Selene
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FaithofAbraham, this verse doesn’t even say that Moses would be God. The Catholics do not take verses from the Scripture out of context. This is what the Scripture says: (taken from the New American Bible).
Exodus 4:15-16 …I will assist both you and him in speaking and will teach the two of you what you are to do. He shall speak to the people for you: he shall be yours spokesman and you shall be as God to him.
The Catholics understood this to mean that God will teach both Aaron and Moses to speak. There is nothing in our doctrine that even proclaims Moses to be God.
Actually, God created the Heavens and the earth FIRST before He created any living creatures, and below is what your Qur’an says about the creation of the Heavens and the earth.
Sura 50:38 And certainly WE created the heavens and the earth and what is between them in six periods and there touched US not any fatigue.
As you can see in your own Qur’an, Allah created the heavens and the earth, and we both know that the heavens and the earth were created before any living creatures… This means that BEFORE the Heavens and earth were created, Allah was NOT ALONE. Why? Because they were WITH ALLAH TOGETHER creating the heavens and the earth and everything else! What other beings besides Allah existed BEFORE the Heavens and earth were created, FaithofAbraham??? So, answer the question:
- Do you believe that there is only ONE Creator who is Allah, or do you believe that Allah, the Ox, Lion, Man, and the Eagle were all Creators?
- If you believe that there is only one Creator in the beginning of time, then who else was Allah referring to when he said, WE created the heavens and the earth?
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