Can Allah be called Father?

[inJESUS]

**I teach **

Jesus was a true man too, and that the Spirit of God dwelling with his human spirit is the same as God dwelling with human prophets. read my signature. Who teaches is Jesus. and Jesus says He is the Alpha and Omega, the Judge, the One who gives wisdom, the One who gives rest. With all due respect, what you teach is not what Jesus taught. You might be a good person, a good friend, but you are not the Alpha and Omega.

Son of God is a euphemism for the Messiah, it doesn’t refer to deity.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

read my signature. Who teaches is Jesus. and Jesus says He is the Alpha and Omega, the Judge, the One who gives wisdom, the One who gives rest. With all due respect, what you teach is not what Jesus taught. You might be a good person, a good friend, but you are not the Alpha and Omega.

correct. Son of God is not necessarily a divine title. This does not deny that in this case, Jesus, the Son of God, is the Alpha and Omega, the Creator of this world. This differentiates Him from all other prophets who came before.

a creature is neither the Alpha and Omega, nor the Creator of this world, nor the ones who gives wisdom and peace to humans, nor someone who is omnipresent. What you are discussing is another gospel.

Am discussing scriptures as a whole, you are going in circles by picking and choosing.

Jesus also says he is the new Lucifer, which is the leader of great Gentile kingdoms ruling over Jews.

Revelation 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

So in that sense he is king of kings, over all kingdoms from Egypt to Rome, the first and last of the great Gentile kingdoms, and the light to the Gentiles.

Isaiah 49:6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.

So in all this, Jesus is still God’s Servant, which makes him a subordinate to God.

So if you want to say that Jesus is literally God, you are an Arian promoting a lesser deity and a greater deity, according to what the Bible is saying.

 

[inJESUS]

Well then you seem to trash every Messianic prophecy that says Messiah is a son from David’s seed with your tradition by saying that Jesus didn’t have David’s blood running through his veins.

you do not need to attack my tradition in every post you make. I am using scriptures when you are giving mere opinions based on your own understanding of some passages and you end up opposing others…What i give are interpretations based on the Bible, and do not oppose other scriptures. I gave many examples showing Jesus is the seed of David, without taking it literally and they fit very well…am not opposing scriptures, am just not taking"seed of David" literally and the interpretations fit without opposing other scriptures. In the same way “branch of David” does not mean he is a tree, likewise seed of David does not necessarily mean his biological son or grandson but could mean from the same kingly seed of David, that is, Kingship. No throne of David’s sons endured because they are based on men. Thrones will overthrow thrones and kingdoms overthrow kingdoms. What makes their throne endure is God, after all kings end up as dead corpses as God says, and they did end up, no one endured unless the eternal King takes it on His shoulders to revive the thrones eternally because of His promise. This is why there are paralleles between Jesus and David, not between Jesus and David’s son or grandson, because the focus point is David’s Kingship, not his “seeds” in biological terms but his kingly seed and the King to come will represent David’s Kingdom as lived by David but which will be for ever as ruled by God, the Word.

If you insist otherwise, you got Mary. Until you prove beyond a doubt that she does not fit, its still a valid interpretation based on biology.

saying Jesus is literally David’s son or grandson was denied by Jesus. Saying Jesus is a creature is denied by Jesus.

Read his discussions with Nicodemus to see the difference.

in this discussion, Jesus made sure humans are not reborn in wombs.

 

[inJESUS]

So in all this, Jesus is still God’s Servant,

Jesus Himself says He came to serve, not be served…this is not new…but saying that because of this, Jesus is a mere creature, a mere servant, then here its an innovation that opposes scriptures because the Alpha and Omega is not a creature but the Creator even if He came as a man.

So if you want to say that Jesus is literally God, you are an Arian

 

[FaithofAbraham]

saying Jesus is literally David’s son or grandson was denied by Jesus. Saying Jesus is a creature is denied by Jesus.

No, saying that God just whipped up a body out of thin air ignores prophecy. Sure God has the power to do that, but it wouldn’t fulfill prophecy of Messiah. Even Adam was made of dirt.

2 Samuel 7:12 And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers,** I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels**, and I will establish his kingdom.

in this discussion, Jesus made sure humans are not reborn in wombs.

No Jesus was telling about being created from the sex act according to the flesh, as opposed to resurrection in a restored body by power of the spirit.

First Jesus was created by the shameful sex act between David and Bathsheba the wife he stole from Uriah, then Jesus was killed by God to punish David and take David’s Messiah away. Then God resurrected Jesus into glory and into Mary’s womb to be born again as the Prophet.

1 Corinthians 15:42-45 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

Then again God killed Jesus on the cross to punish Israel for its sins and take Israel’s Messiah away. Then God resurrected Jesus into glory and into Joseph’s tomb to be born again as the Messiah who rules the world.

So Jesus went from being sown in utter shame to being resurrected and born again into utter glory.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

the Bible talks about Jesus the eternal Word who created everything, and Jesus the Word who took a second nature.One does not negate the other. What you are presenting as Jesus being only a human is a heresy in addition to being an insult to Jesus who took it very seriously to say and prove who He is. If you have a problem with the Incarnation, it does not mean Father, Word and Spirit no longer exist…it just means you don’t think God can come as a man and still be God.

I think it insults Jesus to say he isn’t man enough to conquer sin through his obedience and love of God, you have to make a God out of him to do it. It just disregards all the human effort he put into his sacrifice. There’s no sacrifice for a God to do all that since God knows He is going to live no matter what.

But a mere mortal has to have a lot of faith in God to believe God is going to come through for him in the end.

 

[inJESUS]

No, saying that God just whipped up a body out of thin air ignores prophecy. Sure God has the power to do that, but it wouldn’t fulfill prophecy of Messiah. Even Adam was made of dirt.

you can find other interpretations of the prophecy without opposing what Jesus says : I am David’ s Lord and Creator, not his son. God did fulfill the promise, David’s throne (not his descendants’ throne) endures for ever through Jesus the Creator,the kingly seed of David , the new seed of David, (or in blood related to Mary), not through a human king who will end up a corpse,because nothing endures except God.

2 Samuel 7:12 And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers,** I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels**

 

[FaithofAbraham]

you can find other interpretations of the prophecy without opposing what Jesus says : I am David’ s Lord and Creator, not his son. God did fulfill the promise, David’s throne (not his descendants’ throne) endures for ever through Jesus the Creator,the kingly seed of David , the new seed of David, (or in blood related to Mary), not through a human king who will end up a corpse,because nothing endures except God.

You say Jesus can’t be descended from David’s flesh because Jesus created David. So then how do you think Mary can be his real mother if Jesus created Mary too?

for Jesus to be out of his “bowels” literally means Jesus is his direct biological son created from his seed and a woman’s seed,like Solomon… that is, Jesus’ existence depended on human seeds,like Solomon, something denied by Jesus because He is His Creator and He is eternal and does not depend on anyone to exist or to come to earth as a man. So if you want to interpret this passage, be my guest, but do not deny that Jesus says : am His Lord, not his son. This passage applies to any of his sons, Solomon for example, but does not apply to Jesus. Do not give prophecy more importance than who Jesus is because it was Jesus who revealed these prophecies so Jesus comes first, and then your interpretation of prophecies.

You have to agree with all the prophecies not just your favorites or your tradition makes either God or the Bible a liar.

 

[inJESUS]

I think it insults Jesus to say he isn’t man enough to conquer sin through his obedience and love of God, you have to make a God out of him to do it. It just disregards all the human effort he put into his sacrifice. There’s no sacrifice for a God to do all that since God knows He is going to live no matter what.

He is a man and did not sin. And He is God. Having the ability to sin will not negate He did not. He is man and He is God , saying otherwise is pretending not know more than your creator, which is an insult.

 

[inJESUS]

You say Jesus can’t be descended from David’s flesh because Jesus created David. So then how do you think Mary can be his real mother if Jesus created Mary too?

Jesus the man came through Mary, The Word is not created by her, The Word in flesh is not created by her. He created His body into Her.He incarnated into her. She was the means by which He came to earth.

You have to agree with all the prophecies not just your favorites or your tradition makes either God or the Bible a liar.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Jesus the man came through Mary, The Word is not created by her, The Word in flesh is not created by her. He created His body into Her.He incarnated into her. She was the means by which He came to earth.

Ok then you are saying Mary was a surrogate and not related at all to Jesus through the flesh, right?

 

[Selene]

There’s no way to know if it would be that way if it was a new doctrine presented to the world by the Church, rather than an ancient one presented by the Jews first.
.

My Muslim friend, Christians believe that God created the entire unverse without any help from the angels. After all, it was God who created the angels, His messengers. Also, this is what your Qur’an says:

Sura 37:150 Or did We create the angels females while they were witnesses?

According to this verse, it was NOT the angels who helped Allah create the Heavens and Earth because the angels were not even created yet. Notice that Allah again refers to himself as “WE” when creating his helpers. So, are there any other helpers of Allah in Islam besides the angels? Who is Allah referring to when he said “WE” create the angels. Obviously, your Qur’an is telling you that Allah was not referring to the angels.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

My Muslim friend, Christians believe that God created the entire unverse without any help from the angels. After all, it was God who created the angels, His messengers. Also, this is what your Qur’an says:

Sura 37:150 Or did We create the angels females while they were witnesses?

According to this verse, it was NOT the angels who helped Allah create the Heavens and Earth because the angels were not even created yet. Notice that Allah again refers to himself as “WE” when creating his helpers. So, are there any other helpers of Allah in Islam besides the angels? Who is Allah referring to when he said “WE” create the angels. Obviously, your Qur’an is telling you that Allah was not referring to the angels.

The Quran doesn’t say that there were no angels at that time. The Bible says there was.

Job 38:4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

Job 38:5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

Job 38:6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

 

[inJESUS]

Ok then you are saying Mary was a surrogate and not related at all to Jesus through the flesh, right?

depends on what you mean by “related”. If you mean created from egg and seeds, then no. But if it means Jesus came through Mary, “used” so to speak her womb, flesh and blood then yes.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

depends on what you mean by “related”. If you mean created from egg and seeds, then no. But if it means Jesus came through Mary, “used” so to speak her womb, flesh and blood then yes.

Are you saying the body of Jesus was created from the flesh and blood of Mary, like a clone maybe? Yay or nay?

 

[Selene]

The Quran doesn’t say that there were no angels at that time. The Bible says there was.

Job 38:4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

Job 38:5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

Job 38:6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Your Qur’an says that Allah (along with some other being) created the angels. As I said, Allah refers to himself in the plural sense. You accuse Christians of being a polytheist, and here you are - a Muslim, worshipping a god who refers to himself as more than one god because he refers to himself in the plural tense rather than as one god. And you cannot explain it??? Instead, you quote verses from our Bible that has nothing to do with why Allah refer to himself in the plural sense. Who else was with Allah when he created the universe??? Who else was a Creator besides Allah? In Christianity, we recognize only one Creator. No one else is a Creator. God in the only Creator and everything else are “Creations.” Tjhis is our belief. So, why does Allah refer to himself as “WE?”

 

[inJESUS]

Are you saying the body of Jesus was created from the flesh and blood of Mary, like a clone maybe? Yay or nay?

NO

Incarnation, not creation.

 

[Selene]

Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

You quoted this from our Bible as your answer as to why Allah refer to himself as “WE?” Are you saying that the morning stars, which Allah created are also “Creators?” Or are you saying the “sons of God” who shouted for joy were the ones Allah was referring to when he said, “WE” created the heavens and the earth? Muslims believe that God has no son.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Your Qur’an says that Allah (along with some other being) created the angels. As I said, Allah refers to himself in the plural sense. You accuse Christians of being a polytheist, and here you are - a Muslim, worshipping a god who refers to himself as more than one god because he refers to himself in the plural tense rather than as one god. And you cannot explain it??? Instead, you quote verses from our Bible that has nothing to do with why Allah refer to himself in the plural sense. Who else was with Allah when he created the universe??? Who else was a Creator besides Allah? In Christianity, we recognize only one Creator. No one else is a Creator. God in the only Creator and everything else are “Creations.” Tjhis is our belief. So, why does Allah refer to himself as “WE?”

That is referring to creating for the angels daughters as it is claimed that God has a literal a Son in Jesus. So it’s not saying what you want it to say.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

You quoted this from our Bible as your answer as to why Allah refer to himself as “WE?” Are you saying that the morning stars, which Allah created are also “Creators?” Or are you saying the “sons of God” who shouted for joy were the ones Allah was referring to when he said, “WE” created the heavens and the earth? Muslims believe that God has no son.

The Sons of God were the faithful angels who worshiped God. As are the faithful human Sons of God too.

Romans 8:14-15 For as **many **as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

The Quran says that God did not have sex with Mary like a Zeus to produce a demigod. The Quran isn’t objecting to the nature described in Romans 8.