F
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
- Status
- Not open for further replies.
F
FaithofAbraham
Guest
it is Allah who said he has no sons, and Muslims repeat. If muslims got it wrong because of “Christians”, who did Allah get it wrong from?
I
inJESUS
Guest
inJESUS;3212191:
she is Jesus’ mother, He came through her…no one and nothing created Jesus.But you mean she is a like a surrogate, no part of her was actually used to create Jesus, right?
F
FaithofAbraham
Guest
Then you believe Mary is a surrogate like I do.she is Jesus’ mother, He came through her…no one and nothing created Jesus.
Only I say,
- Jesus is David’s son God killed for David’s sin.
- Resurrected into Mary’s womb to be the Prophet.
- Jesus is David’s son God killed on the cross for Israel’s sin.
- Resurrected into Joseph’s tomb to be the Messiah.
- Fulfilling God’s promise to David for that son to be Messiah.
I
inJESUS
Guest
not their mistake if the author of the Quran abhores this title. If the title is ok spiritually, then where does the Quran say it? because in like about 10 ayas, the Quran rejects the title because the author understood it physically…where is the spiritual understanding in Quran?Where is Allah called father in Quran? the Bible uses it explicitely, why doesn’t the Quran in order to prove the title per se is not rejected? why give 10 meaningless ayas about Allah not having a wife and children instead of a meaningfull one aya saying the title must not be understood literally ? one aya makes it clearer than 10 ayas attacking a strawman.
if Christians get it wrong it means Jesus got it wrong that He is the uncreated, eternal begotten Word of God.Christians get it wrong
F
FaithofAbraham
Guest
It is the fault of Muslims if they don’t take the Quran along with the Bible to understand what the Quran is talking about, they get half the message for everything.not their mistake if the author of the Quran abhores this title.
if Christians get it wrong it means Jesus got it wrong that He is the uncreated, eternal begotten Word of God.
It is the fault of Christians if they go to excess in describing the nature of Jesus being a child of God.
I
inJESUS
Guest
Then you believe Mary is a surrogate like I do.
what do you mean by surrogate? a substitute? if yes, then no i don’t believe this. She is a means, not a substitute to anyone.
- Jesus is David’s son God killed for David’s sin.
I
inJESUS
Guest
It is the fault of Muslims if they don’t take the Quran along with the Bible to understand what the Quran is talking about, they get half the message for everything.
this is true, but since the Quran is the last guidance, the “perfect” guidance, its not their fault if Muhammad never calls Allah as a father, as Jesus does…and snce there are dozen aya about not saying father because he has no wife and children, and not a single aya where he is called father, then it’s on you to prove, from the “final book”, the pemission to call him father…the Bible is irrelevant here, because the same deity who inspired the title father in the Bible never ever used it in his “final book”.
It is the fault of Christians if they go to excess in describing the nature of Jesus being a child of God.
F
FaithofAbraham
Guest
I mean someone who is not of her flesh but resided in her womb, which is what you imply.what do you mean by surrogate?
Then if someone got a blood transfusion from Mary they would be made of the seed of David according to the flesh, as Romans says…that’s not quite what it means.He could have David’s blood through Mary .He is not created by any of their flesh, seed, or egg.
F
FaithofAbraham
Guest
The Quran isn’t meant to be the only guidance, any more than the NT completely replaces the OT. All three are to be read together. More than anything the Quran is a key that unlocks what the Bible is saying.this is true, but since the Quran is the last guidance, the “perfect” guidance, its not their fault if Muhammad never calls Allah as a father, as Jesus does…and snce there are dozen aya about not saying father because he has no wife and children, and not a single aya where he is called father, then it’s on you to prove, from the “final book”, the pemission to call him father…the Bible is irrelevant here, because the same deity who inspired the title father in the Bible never ever used it in his “final book”.
its Jesus’ fault then
I
inJESUS
Guest
I mean someone who is not of her flesh but resided in her womb, which is what you imply.
i might have used wrong words but this is not what i meant. I meant He is not created by her flesh, but shared/used her flesh.She is the means for His coming in flesh, not the reason.
Then if someone got a blood transfusion from Mary they would be made of the seed of David according to the flesh, as Romans says…that’s not quite what it means.
I
inJESUS
Guest
fine, yet this does not negate the fact that Allah, who is supposedly the one who inspired the Bible according to you, never ever used this title for himself but kept rejecting it, when he excplicitely used it in previous scriptures. Why is this shift of identity as if Allah does not want Muslims specifically to call him father? a muslim can still read previous scriptures and find the word father in his book, instead of reading a dozen ayas where the word father is linked to blasphemy and threats. Reading previous scriptures has nothing to do with Allah calling himself father in Quran.The Quran isn’t meant to be the only guidance, any more than the NT completely replaces the OT. All three are to be read together. More than anything the Quran is a key that unlocks what the Bible is saying.
S
Selene
Guest
I see…so Allah was never alone when he first created everything. That means that you believe there is more than one Creator, FaithofAbraham. Christians believe that there is only one Creator because we believe that there is only one God. You, on the other hand, believe in many Creators, which indicates that you believe in many Creators. Since Allah was never alone, then the angels who were with him since the beginning were NOT “creations” of Allah at all. They would be considered equal to Allah.No jinn are cherubim like Satan, angels only serve God, like Michael and Gabriel.
There are hierarchies of angels so you are never going to find in the Quran where God can be alone because God can create ranks and dominions after He has already created higher angels. So that’s about it on that.
And by the way, the Qur’an does say that Allah is the ONLY Creator.
Sura 35.3 O men! call to mind the favor of Allah on you; **is there any creator besides Allah **who gives you sustenance from the heaven and the earth? There is no god but He; whence are you then turned away?
Sura15.86 Surely your Lord is the Creator of all things, the Knowing.
If Allah was never alone, then who created the beings who were with Allah when the Qur’an says that Allah was the Creator of all things? Apparently, he is not the Creator of all, if there were other being with him as Co-Creators.
S
Selene
Guest
The verses below does not speak about their tradition, but the Scripture. These verses stated that both the Jews and Christians changed the saying or word in their book.It says none of that. Jews and Christians changed Scripture with their traditions, not the actual words of it.
Why do you want so bad for the Quran to say the Bible is trash? It should make you happy it doesn’t.
Sura 2.59 But those who were unjust **changed it for a saying other than that which had been spoken to them, **so We sent upon those who were unjust a pestilence from heaven, because they transgressed.
Sura 2.75 Do you then hope that they would believe in you, and a party from among them indeed used to hear the Word of Allah, then altered it after they had understood it, and they know (this).
Sura 5.13 But on account of their breaking their covenant We cursed them and made their hearts hard; **they altered the words from their places **nd they neglected a portion of what they were reminded of; and you shall always discover treachery in them excepting a few of them; so pardon them and turn away; surely Allah loves those who do good (to others).
Sura 5.41 O Apostle! let not those grieve you who strive together in hastening to unbelief from among those who say with their mouths: We believe, and their hearts do not believe, and from among those who are Jews; they are listeners for the sake of a lie, listeners for another people who have not come to you; **they alter the words from their places, **saying: If you are given this, take it, and if you are not given this, be cautious; and as for him whose temptation Allah desires, you cannot control anything for him with Allah. Those are they for whom Allah does not desire that He should purify their hearts; they shall have disgrace in this world, and they shall have a grievous chastisement in the hereafter.
Sura 2.174 Surely those who conceal any part of the Book that Allah has revealed and take for it a small price, they eat nothing but fire into their bellies, and Allah will not speak to them on the day of resurrection, nor will He purify them, and they shall have a painful chastisement.
F
FaithofAbraham
Guest
I don’t care if Jesus shared Mary’s blood through the umbilical, embryos implanted into surrogate mothers do the same, but the surrogate is not the natural mother.i might have used wrong words but this is not what i meant. I meant He is not created by her flesh, but shared/used her flesh.She is the means for His coming in flesh, not the reason.
So is Mary a flesh mother to Jesus, or just a surrogate? Was any bit of Mary’s flesh used to create Jesus, yes or no?
F
FaithofAbraham
Guest
Because all such discussion refers to Jesus being a demigod sired from God’s sperm. It’s not about being a child of God.Why is this shift of identity as if Allah does not want Muslims specifically to call him father?
F
FaithofAbraham
Guest
I’m not saying that either, I’m saying you are going to have a hard time knowing either in the Quran or Genesis at what point God created the first angel.I see…so Allah was never alone when he first created everything.
F
FaithofAbraham
Guest
It means they alter the interpretation with their traditions. For example:The verses below does not speak about their tradition, but the Scripture. These verses stated that both the Jews and Christians changed the saying or word in their book.
Jews say Isaiah 53 Suffering Servant is not about Messiah, it is.
Christians say John 1:1 means Jesus is God, it doesn’t.
That’s the kind of thing Quran is talking about.
R
ralphinal
Guest
The only modern group that I have ever seen make this claim are Muslims. I know that Islam does not have to be so literal. God is quite capable of creating life without sex being involved. After all, he has done it before.Because all such discussion refers to Jesus being a demigod sired from God’s sperm. It’s not about being a child of God.
I think that it comes down to the fundamental understanding of the God to man relationship. Are we servants or are we children? Are we slaves or are we free? Does God love us? If so, how does he see us?
F
FaithofAbraham
Guest
Since Mohammed was dealing with pagan Arabs who believed such mythologies, I take it that the Quran was telling them not to view Jesus that way, that’s all.The only modern group that I have ever seen make this claim are Muslims. I know that Islam does not have to be so literal. God is quite capable of creating life without sex being involved. After all, he has done it before.
I think that it comes down to the fundamental understanding of the God to man relationship. Are we servants or are we children? Are we slaves or are we free? Does God love us? If so, how does he see us?
- Status
- Not open for further replies.