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Cone
Guest
Jesus said no drunkards can enter heaven, but what about alcoholics who try but can’t kick the habit?
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Pat_Payne
Guest
Actually, it was Saint Paul who said that. And you have to understand the context he was talking under. He was essentially reading the Church in Corinth the riot act, telling them that what objectively looked like a willful, deliberate choice of lifestyle was incompatible to the Gospel. This passage, while important, is actually in the context of a longer discourse about the failings of the Corinthians. He was shooting across the bow and saying – straighten up and fly right.
It’s also important to note that at that time, the very concept of “alcoholism” didn’t exist. The idea of addiction didn’t exist. Those evolved later, and were worked in as mitigating factors. St. Paul, still at the time a fallible human, looked at drunkards with the eye of his time. Bill W or Dr. Bob he was not, unfortunately.
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OraLabora
Guest
Yes.
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flower_lady
Guest
Alcoholism is a disease. You can go to long term treatment if you really want to get help. Try AA and trust God. Ask Him to have mercy on you and if you fail. Try, try again. Jesus can cure anybody. Keep the faith, and remember faith is the substance of things not yet seen. May God stay near to your heart. Brenda
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robertmidwest
Guest
Yes.
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flower_lady
Guest
I forgot to say that Yes you can get to heaven.
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OraLabora
Guest
Exactly. In biblical times drunkenness wasn’t recognized as a disease, it is now. An alcoholic once hooked, is not sinning mortally by getting drunk because (s)he does not have full consent of the will.
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truetofaith
Guest
An alcoholic who is not trying to kick his habit is not being repentant & may not get to heaven, but someone who is trying by attending AA or other methods is in the same boat as someone trying not to swear or get angry. If they fail, they can go to confession & get absolution.
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OraLabora
Guest
An alcoholic usually doesn’t even know (s)he’s an alcoholic, or be able to admit it. It usually takes hitting rock bottom to be, as you call it, “repentant”. Usually “rock bottom” is something like a divorce, or a DUI arrest. I took a management course on alcoholism/addiction once, given by a psychiatrist. It was a compulsory course for all management.
She told the story of an alcoholic colleague who finally realized he had a problem when he woke up after sleeping overnight in a park; he was awoken by a dog licking the vomit off his face.
Alcoholism is disease, not a moral issue. It needs to be recognized and treated as a disease, and one needs to understand the progression of the disorder. It can only be successfully treated when the patient recognizes the problem. It is not a “habit”. It’s an addiction. Biting one’s nails is a habit. Picking one’s nose is a habit. Getting dressed always in the same order in the morning, is a habit. Alcoholism is an addiction, and a disease.
Of course, at that point God can, and should, play a large role in the patient’s recovery.
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truetofaith
Guest
So, it’s no longer a sin?
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OraLabora
Guest
Did I say that? I don’t think so.
I said it wasn’t sinning mortally because one didn’t have full consent of the will as an addict.
Go back and read what I wrote in post no. 7, and also what Flower lady wrote in post 6. Nobody is denying the role of God in seeking a cure.
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truetofaith
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You said, “Alcoholism is disease, not a moral issue.” I believe it starts out as a moral issue, then develops into a disease.
The first time a drug addict puts a needle in their arm or snorts cocaine…with all the previous knowledge of the results on TV etc…I would say they gave full consent of their will.
An alcoholic has a more complex situation. People can have a glass of wine or a mixed drink almost daily without becoming addicted.
As soon as a person feels they can’t get through a day or two without a drink…they can resist the temptation or make that “full consent of the will” to keep on drinking & possibly becoming an alcoholic. Again, there is a lot of information on TV etc.
It amazes(scares) me to see college kids on spring break chugging down beer & hard liquor & having a drunken orgy. Especially, the girls.
The “full consent of the will” was made when they decided to go with those friends who will act that way!
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OraLabora
Guest
Can we identify a single “mortal” moment where the alcoholic crosses over from moderate drinking to dependency? I don’t think it’s that easy, which is why it is difficult to deal with this as an issue of morality. While the Church says that getting drunk is grave matter, it’s hard to say where the “mortally sinful” moment is with an incremental increase in drinking. The point is that once the condition is identified, it’s a disease and needs to be treated as such, no amount of moralizing will convert the alcoholic, in spite of the fact (s)he is objectively committing grave sin by being drunk. A cocaine snort though, I agree, is another matter; being an illegal substance as well, there’s no (IMHO) socially-acceptable circumstance to even try it.
Like a lot of kids my age at the time when I was in college I’ve gotten drunk on occasion. Most of us though felt so rotten the next day, it remained a powerful lesson that kept us clean for a long time. For a few it’s a problem but they may not recognize their issue at the time. I agree with you that drunken orgies are not such a hot idea.
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BernadetteM
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An alcoholic is BORN an alcoholic! They have no choice. Their bodies don’t eliminate the alcohol as a normal person’s does.
Most live a horrible life. Of course there are those who choose to drink to excess, just to get high or avoid problems they face. This is different.
Those of you who sit in judgment, please remember Christ’s words that you will be judged as you judge others.
Alcoholism is a disease just as diabetes or many brain diseases, i.e. bi-polar etc. are and one is born this way.
The Lord is full of mercy knowing this and those who have these diseases of course have the same chance of entering Heaven as anyone else.
Yours in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary
Bernadette
Most live a horrible life. Of course there are those who choose to drink to excess, just to get high or avoid problems they face. This is different.
Those of you who sit in judgment, please remember Christ’s words that you will be judged as you judge others.
Alcoholism is a disease just as diabetes or many brain diseases, i.e. bi-polar etc. are and one is born this way.
The Lord is full of mercy knowing this and those who have these diseases of course have the same chance of entering Heaven as anyone else.
Yours in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary
Bernadette
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truetofaith
Guest
You are correct in saying it is difficult to p(name removed by moderator)oint when moderate drinking crosses over to dependency.
If a person goes out with the ‘gang’ with the intention of getting sloppy drunk, they chose to commit sin. On the other hand, if they just went for one or two & were urged to have one more all night…it could be considered as not full consent. That’s not an alcoholic’s plight.
They may have been the ones who intended to get sloppy drunk when they were young or over the years & it eventually became an addiction.
They also may have turned to alcohol to ‘drown their sorrows’ which I feel is a sin, since most people realize what can & does happen! It’s very tragic & sad.
If a person goes out with the ‘gang’ with the intention of getting sloppy drunk, they chose to commit sin. On the other hand, if they just went for one or two & were urged to have one more all night…it could be considered as not full consent. That’s not an alcoholic’s plight.
They may have been the ones who intended to get sloppy drunk when they were young or over the years & it eventually became an addiction.
They also may have turned to alcohol to ‘drown their sorrows’ which I feel is a sin, since most people realize what can & does happen! It’s very tragic & sad.
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truetofaith
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I hope you don’t think anyone is sitting in judgment . The OP asked the question & we are discussing the matter.
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KD8TZC
Guest
Of course an alcoholic can get into heaven. What you must remember though is that once an alcoholic, always an alcoholic. Just because someone has been sober for 24 hours, 1 week, a year, or 50+ years, they are still and will always be an alcoholic.
I have been sober for over 5 years, and the biggest problem that I see in my past life was that I turned to the bottle with all my problems instead of trusting in God and turning to Him. I had a huge hole in my life and once I filled that with God, it changed me. Remarkably, I have gone though some even tougher times in my life while I have been sober than I did when I was drinking and I can only say that I was able to do so with the Grace given to me by God.
Another thing to think about, and I talk about with other alcoholics is I will die one day an alcoholic. There is nothing I can do about that and I have accepted it. What I don’t accept though and what I pray will never happen is that I will die from alcoholism. Those are two different items as generally speaking, people who die from alcoholism are those who are still drinking (and rarely those who quite some time ago but the damage to their bodies was so severe and cessation was so late in the process that the damage was already done) and die from their drinking.
So to go back toy our initial question, yes, alcoholics can go to heaven. They will have to repent and all the other things that go along with forgiveness of sins, but God loves alcoholics just as much as he loves everyone else. It is our choice though if we wish to accept His love and embrace it.
Pax
John
I have been sober for over 5 years, and the biggest problem that I see in my past life was that I turned to the bottle with all my problems instead of trusting in God and turning to Him. I had a huge hole in my life and once I filled that with God, it changed me. Remarkably, I have gone though some even tougher times in my life while I have been sober than I did when I was drinking and I can only say that I was able to do so with the Grace given to me by God.
Another thing to think about, and I talk about with other alcoholics is I will die one day an alcoholic. There is nothing I can do about that and I have accepted it. What I don’t accept though and what I pray will never happen is that I will die from alcoholism. Those are two different items as generally speaking, people who die from alcoholism are those who are still drinking (and rarely those who quite some time ago but the damage to their bodies was so severe and cessation was so late in the process that the damage was already done) and die from their drinking.
So to go back toy our initial question, yes, alcoholics can go to heaven. They will have to repent and all the other things that go along with forgiveness of sins, but God loves alcoholics just as much as he loves everyone else. It is our choice though if we wish to accept His love and embrace it.
Pax
John
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truetofaith
Guest
Excellent answer from a man who knows…first hand!
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flower_lady
Guest
Well, I guess praying often does not mean you have turned your life over to God because I used to pray often and as sincerely as I thought I knew how to. I pleaded with God so many many times to help me and would turn right around and drink maybe an hour after or the next day. All I can say is that alcohol made me forget my problems and make me feel good at the moment. But sadly enough when the high was gone I had to start all over again for that short time to feel better. Until I hit rock botton in which by then I had put my family and children through all kinds of hell in their life. I just came back to the church about 7 yrs. ago and I am 66 yrs. old. I don’t drink much any more maybe 4 times a yr. I have lived in hell before I let go and let God take over. I’ts one of the most misserable diseases a person can have. Been through it all. I was insane litterally. You have to be to continue to punish yourself over and over again that way. God bless all alcoholics and may the Merciful God send them to recovery quickly. You can make it if you trust in God and don’t give up.I was probably born with the disease. It is common in my family. I was an alcoholic at 10 yrs. old.
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KD8TZC
Guest
Flower… praying to God doesn’t necessarily mean you have turned your will over to Him though. I used to pray to Him all the time when I was drinking too… it wasn’t until I started really trusting Him that was able to turn my life around.
PAX
John
PAX
John
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