Can an all-powerful God make a rock so big

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Q: If God is all-powerful, can He make a rock so big He couldn’t lift it?

Please help me see if the following response to this question makes good sense.

A: Yes! …

Objection: Then He is not all-powerful since He cannot lift the rock.

A: That depends upon one’s definition of all-powerful. Let me propose the following definition: God is all-powerful in the sense that the only limitations to His power are self imposed.

This definition has several advantages. This preserves the uniqueness of the all-powerful God (There can be only one God to create the limitations.) It can explain how free-will does not contradict the power of God, as our free will is a gift from God as he limits His power over us. (He need not give up all power over us to give us free will.) It helps explain the problem of evil in the world in that God did not create evil, but by limiting His power over us (and the angels), He allows us to “create” evil, e.g., original sin.

Anyone see problems with this approach?
 
Perhaps it’d be easier to use an example that can be readily imagined:

Can God make a triangle with 4 sides?

Answer: No. God cannot be self-contradictory. A triangle with 4 sides is meaningless. (So is an object of infinite mass, since only God is infinite).

We could carry it a step futher and say that truth cannot be self-contradictory.
 
I agree with you in that a definition of all powerful that means “capable of doing anything” is a self contradictory definition like the 4-sided triangle. Rather than leaving it at that level, I was proposing another definition that would not be self contradictory and could still preserve true properties of God’s power and grace.

Just getting some thoughts.
 
First of all, this atheistic argument is older than the proverbial rock and you should suggest to your friend that he find more creativity in his life.

Don’t get caught up in this argument. It is at the very core asking you not so much to answer the question but to “admit” that God is self-contradictory and therefore does not exist.

Don’t get caught up in that mess. We say that God can do all things, but self-contradiction is not a “thing” so therefore the argument is illogical.
 
God is not the author of contradiction.

God cannot make a 4-sided triangle.
He cannot make a rock too heavy for Him to lift.
He cannot make a square circle.
He cannot commit suicide.

Why?

Because all of those are self contradictions. They are meaningless. They are nothings. And nothing IS impossible to God.
 
Dr. Tommy A:
I agree with you in that a definition of all powerful that means “capable of doing anything” is a self contradictory definition like the 4-sided triangle. Rather than leaving it at that level, I was proposing another definition that would not be self contradictory and could still preserve true properties of God’s power and grace.

Just getting some thoughts.
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Apologies if I misrepresent your approach, but by your method, you’d say that God could create a triangle with 4 sides but doesn’t because he imposes limitations on himself?

If that’s what you mean, I’d avoid such an explanation, because it’d make people think that God could be self-contradictory if he so chose, which isn’t true.
 
“Can God make a triangle with four sides” is a lot like the old “What happens when an irresistible force meets an immovable object?”

Me, I’ve always just settled my thoughts with the opinion that God can do anything he darn well wants to and left it at there.

Of course, one could argue that the very definitions of triangle, side, four, rock, big, lift, and could are humanly ordained and since God is above our systems of reasoning they don’t matter. How many angels can dance on the head of a pin? That depends on your pin. Same sort of thing here: it depends on how you define each term. And God’s definition could be way different from ours.

Maybe the question should be,
“Can God make a three-sided figure with four sides?”

My answer?

Of course, if He wants to. Nothing is impossible with God. :cool:
 
The_Angelus said:
“Can God make a triangle with four sides” is a lot like the old “What happens when an irresistible force meets an immovable object?”

Me, I’ve always just settled my thoughts with the opinion that God can do anything he darn well wants to and left it at there.

Of course, one could argue that the very definitions of triangle, side, four, rock, big, lift, and could are humanly ordained and since God is above our systems of reasoning they don’t matter. How many angels can dance on the head of a pin? That depends on your pin. Same sort of thing here: it depends on how you define each term. And God’s definition could be way different from ours.

Maybe the question should be,
“Can God make a three-sided figure with four sides?”

My answer?

Of course, if He wants to. Nothing is impossible with God. :cool:
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That will lead you to call God a liar which isn’t the case, because God isn’t self-contradictory. God says he is the Way, the Life and the Truth. Truth cannot decide to be a lie. Truth cannot be self-contradictory.

Nothing REAL is impossible with God. A triangle with 4 sides isn’t real, it’s meaningless.
 
Dr. Tommy A:
Q: If God is all-powerful, can He make a rock so big He couldn’t lift it?

Please help me see if the following response to this question makes good sense.

A: Yes! …

Objection: Then He is not all-powerful since He cannot lift the rock.

A: That depends upon one’s definition of all-powerful. Let me propose the following definition: God is all-powerful in the sense that the only limitations to His power are self imposed.

This definition has several advantages. This preserves the uniqueness of the all-powerful God (There can be only one God to create the limitations.) It can explain how free-will does not contradict the power of God, as our free will is a gift from God as he limits His power over us. (He need not give up all power over us to give us free will.) It helps explain the problem of evil in the world in that God did not create evil, but by limiting His power over us (and the angels), He allows us to “create” evil, e.g., original sin.

Anyone see problems with this approach?
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Yes he can make the rock, but when he wants to lift it, he will be able to. God is all powerfull, therefore he can make any rock he wants. He could make a rock that weighted 1 to the google power. In other words, he can make any rock. He can also lift any rock.

For example, say God has a wight lifting bar in Heaven. He puts on 1 million pounds, and does a curl with ease. So he adds another 1 trillion pounds. He does a curl with ease again. He then adds 1 to the google pounds and does a curl with ease. The point is, it is a false question. Since God can make any stone, and he can lift any stone, no matter how large, he is omnipotent. The fact that he can make any stone proves wrong the whole arguement this atheist is trying to make.
 
Dr. Tommy A:
I agree with you in that a definition of all powerful that means “capable of doing anything” is a self contradictory definition like the 4-sided triangle. Rather than leaving it at that level, I was proposing another definition that would not be self contradictory and could still preserve true properties of God’s power and grace.

Just getting some thoughts.
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I don’t think it is self contradictory. The big rock idea is not really self contradictory, it is just their false logic that makes it contradictory. Since God can make the rock, and he can also lift it, he is all powerfull. He can do both, no matter what. He can make a stone of any mass, he can lift a stone of any mass.
 
Wrong. God is Omnicent, Omnipresent, and Omnipotent, but He cannot do somehting that will change His nature. Like, I can run, but can I run faster than a cheetah? No. The fact that I can run does not mean I am very fast and can outrun everybody. God can do anything, but anyways, why would he want to maike a challenge for Himself?
 
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DeFide:
That will lead you to call God a liar which isn’t the case, because God isn’t self-contradictory. God says he is the Way, the Life and the Truth. Truth cannot decide to be a lie. Truth cannot be self-contradictory.

Nothing REAL is impossible with God. A triangle with 4 sides isn’t real, it’s meaningless.
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God created everything real and unreal. There is nothing that is not subject to God, even mathematics. If God wanted to make a foursided triangle, he certainly could because he is not subject to our understanding of mathematics, he created it.
 
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Chazemataz:
Wrong. God is Omnicent, Omnipresent, and Omnipotent, but He cannot do somehting that will change His nature. Like, I can run, but can I run faster than a cheetah? No. The fact that I can run does not mean I am very fast and can outrun everybody. God can do anything, but anyways, why would he want to maike a challenge for Himself?
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Is this directed to me, or to Dr Tommy?

You are correct, God can not change his nature because that is who he is. But if he were running a race, he could run as fast as he wanted. If he were lifting weights, he could make any weight he wants, no matter how heavy, and he could also lift it, no matter how heavy.
 
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jimmy:
God created everything real and unreal. There is nothing that is not subject to God, even mathematics. If God wanted to make a foursided triangle, he certainly could because he is not subject to our understanding of mathematics, he created it.
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I’ve tried explaining this to people before, but they just never seem to be able to understand it. 😦
It might be easier to use the accusation that 4-sided triangle is nothing than to try proving that God is not bound by mathematics or logic.
 
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Chazemataz:
Wrong. God is Omnicent, Omnipresent, and Omnipotent, but He cannot do somehting that will change His nature.
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Interesting thought, but I disagree. I do not believe that human logic can limit God. He can do anything that He wants. Define “nature”. Meriam Webster states “nature” is:

1 a : the inherent character or basic constitution of a person or thing : ESSENCE b : DISPOSITION, TEMPERAMENT.
2 a : a creative and controlling force in the universe b : an inner force or the sum of such forces in an individual
3 : a kind or class usually distinguished by fundamental or essential characteristics <documents of a confidential nature> <acts of a ceremonial nature>
4 : the physical constitution or drives of an organism; especially : an excretory organ or function – used in phrases like the call of nature
5 : a spontaneous attitude (as of generosity)
6 : the external world in its entirety
7 a : humankind’s original or natural condition b : a simplified mode of life resembling this condition
8 : the genetically controlled qualities of an organism
9 : natural scenery

Items 1a, 2a, and 5 particularly apply when trying to classify God’s “nature” (if such a feat is humanly possibly, which I do not believe can be done). If that is the case, who are we to say that God cannot change his nature (by the definitions listed above)? He has shown us that He has changed His attitude spontaneously in the past (forgiving in one book, vengeful in another). I think that it is very shallow to apply our limited human intellect in an attempt to classify God. Additionally, He has shown us three of His “natures” - God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.

Dr Tommy-
Have that atheist look at a new born baby and then ask him if he can refute God. We may have progressed as humans, but we are nowhere near producing something so perfect as human life without God’s hand in the mix.

Peace,

Gordon
 
Ugh. Truth and logic are not “ours”, they are God’s. God cannot be other than what he is. God is perfect and immutable. God is pure act. If he could change, He’d either be changing from a state of less than perfection or to a state of less than perfection, and then He wouldn’t be God. Hence God is outside time. I’d recommend a book called Theology and Sanity by Frank Sheed. It’s available from Catholic.com.

Also, the intial question of making a rock so big he cannot lift is not equivalent to the question of God making a very big rock that he can lift.
 
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DeFide:
Ugh. Truth and logic are not “ours”, they are God’s. God cannot be other than what he is. God is perfect and immutable. God is pure act. If he could change, He’d either be changing from a state of less than perfection or to a state of less than perfection, and then He wouldn’t be God. I’d recommend a book called Theology and Sanity by Frank Sheed. It’s available from Catholic.com.

Also, the intial question of making a rock so big he cannot lift is not equivalent to the question of God making a very big rock that he can lift.
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Are you speaking to me? I think you are with your second paragraph. Both questions come down to the same point because God can make any rock. He can lift any rock. Therefore the contradictory question does not exist. The question means nothing since there is no rock that God can not make. The question is all about limiting what God can make. If God can make any rock, the question becomes invalid and pointless.

To Gordon N, God can not change his nature. As DeFide said, it would imply that he would be changing from a less than perfect nature, or to a less than perfect nature. Either way it would destroy the whole idea of God. God is unchanging and immutable. You can see this in Augustines writings “On Christian Doctrine” and his “Confessions”. God has never changed his mind. God exists outside of time. For Him, everything is in the present. Everything is in the now. That is why God uses a present verb when he says, “Before Abraham was I AM”, and the same when Christ says it. Therefore, Gods mind has never changed. You can see all this in Augustines Confessions.
 
Well, if you want to think about it in a weird way, it is possible to make a 4-sided figure appear to be a triangle, if you just get a little crafty with dimensions (meaning, we rotate the 2D 4 sided figure in three dimensional space until two sides line up in such a way that they look like one side but are not). So, even something that initially appears contradictory from our very limited perspective (like a 4-sided triangle) can be 100% possible from the viewpoint of God (who, as my science and religion teacher would say, “has a dimensional advantage over us”).

Eamon
 
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jimmy:
To Gordon N, God can not change his nature. As DeFide said, it would imply that he would be changing from a less than perfect nature, or to a less than perfect nature. Either way it would destroy the whole idea of God. God is unchanging and immutable.
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I understand what it is that you are saying. I am having a hard time verbalizing my thought, and may have misrepresented myself (a easy thing for me to do!)

My point is that we cannot apply our logic system to God.

My one disagreement with your reply is this:

I do not believe that we even rate to constuct a sentence that contains the words “God” and “cannot” together. Stating that God cannot do something is questioning his omnipotence. Can you enlighten me with your thoughts please? I have not read the texts that you reference, and am going solely from my own logic.

Peace,
Gordon
 
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