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mymamamary
Guest
That is evangelical protestantism. However, as posters here say, and as the Church teaches, You cannot buy your way into heaven. That is why you have to have Faith.
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JRKH
Guest
Well it’s not really “after the fact” when you consider what you asked…Can an atheist ever go to heaven.
Oh - good…But I’m afraid that “fairly well” might not be sufficient. Especially if you are unrepentant where you fall short…and because you deny God’s existence and consequently His grace, you cannot really rely on his mercy or forgiveness for sins that you yourself are not repentant of.
So - you see - by not accepting God, by not availing yourself of His grace and mercy and forgiveness, you make it that much harder to become perfected in Love - and so - that much harder to get into heaven.
Perhaps - But remember that you are asking here on a Catholic board and so - the “litmus test” should be Catholic.
Overall - I believe the best assessment (yardstick) is the Law of Agape Love. Which these other things are an extension of. This form of Love is what Jesus came to live and to preach. It is the standard that we are to embrace and seek to emulate. It’s not easy…but remember…we are called to perfection.
I don’t say these things to be mean or pick on you…ultimately your fate is in God’s hands. Just trying to demonstrate (crudely I’m afraid) how important things like repentance, faith, striving for sanctification etc are for the journey to heaven.
Yes - they tend to draw things a bit more black and white…which isn’t necessarily a bad thing. Sometimes we all need to get smacked with a spiritual 2 x 4 to wake us up and get us moving…
But I think you will find, if you hang around here much, that the Catholic Church has a bit more developed teaching on these matters.
Peace
James
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Bradski
Guest
Are you saying that if you didn’t believe in God you wouldn’t know the difference?
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precordial_thum
Guest
What I meant was, one would be judged from when they were alive, so what happens after death shouldn’t have any bearing on their outcome
I figured since we are speaking in hypotheticals, maybe their are other criteria with which to be judged by, outside of the 10 Commandments and the Seven Deadly Sins.
I appreciate an honest conversation, I’m not one to be easily offended.
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WesleyF
Guest
Catholics do believe in “invincible ignorance” as has been mentioned before in this thread. However, I don’t think an atheist living in New York could fall into that category. There are quite a few verses in the Bible that strongly condemn atheism as a rational choice -
“For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. Ever since the creation of the world his invisible nature, namely, his eternal power and deity, has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse; for although they knew God they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking and their senseless minds were darkened.” (Romans 1:19-20)
“For all men who were ignorant of God were foolish by nature; and they were unable from the good things that are seen to know him who exists, nor did they recognize the craftsman while paying heed to his works; but they supposed that either fire or wind or swift air, or the circle of the stars, or turbulent water, or the luminaries of heaven were the gods that rule the world. If through delight in the beauty of these things men assumed them to be gods, let them know how much better than these is their Lord, for the author of beauty created them. And if men were amazed at their power and working, let them perceive from them how much more powerful is he who formed them. For from the greatness and beauty of created things comes a corresponding perception of their Creator. Yet these men are little to be blamed, for perhaps they go astray while seeking God and desiring to find him. For as they live among his works they keep searching, and they trust in what they see, because the things that are seen are beautiful. Yet again, not even they are to be excused; for if they had the power to know so much that they could investigate the world, how did they fail to find sooner the Lord of these things?” (Wisdom of Solomon 13:1-9)
So my New York friend, if Catholicism is true, in all probability, you’re toast!
“For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. Ever since the creation of the world his invisible nature, namely, his eternal power and deity, has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse; for although they knew God they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking and their senseless minds were darkened.” (Romans 1:19-20)
“For all men who were ignorant of God were foolish by nature; and they were unable from the good things that are seen to know him who exists, nor did they recognize the craftsman while paying heed to his works; but they supposed that either fire or wind or swift air, or the circle of the stars, or turbulent water, or the luminaries of heaven were the gods that rule the world. If through delight in the beauty of these things men assumed them to be gods, let them know how much better than these is their Lord, for the author of beauty created them. And if men were amazed at their power and working, let them perceive from them how much more powerful is he who formed them. For from the greatness and beauty of created things comes a corresponding perception of their Creator. Yet these men are little to be blamed, for perhaps they go astray while seeking God and desiring to find him. For as they live among his works they keep searching, and they trust in what they see, because the things that are seen are beautiful. Yet again, not even they are to be excused; for if they had the power to know so much that they could investigate the world, how did they fail to find sooner the Lord of these things?” (Wisdom of Solomon 13:1-9)
So my New York friend, if Catholicism is true, in all probability, you’re toast!
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TheAtheist
Guest
It really all depends on how you interpret “Invincible Ignorance” - which is an endless topic of debate on these boards.
It really runs a spectrum…as one friend jocularly put it…
Traditionalists/Pre Vatican-II HoldOuts who have been Excommunicated - (Burn in Hell!!!)
Opus Dei (Repent while you can! Save yourself! Or else you will burn in hell!)
Mainstream (Err…I don’t really speak for God, but its a good idea to convert…)
Jesuits (We better think through this carefully, there may be other ways one is joined to the Body of Christ).
Liberation Theologists who have also been Excommunicated - (CHRIST CAME FOR EVERYBODY)
Or something to that effect… Makes for some interesting reading.
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Bradski
Guest
One cannot choose to believe or not to believe. The best one can do is accept evidence that appears reasonable and reject evidence that does not. Belief or non-belief will automatically follow.
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Peter_Plato
Guest
It isn’t about believing or not believing. It is about being transformed into a certain kind of being - one sanctified with divine grace so that person can and eventually will share in the life of God. Belief would imply cooperation, which would seem a helpful step. Disbelief could well be a hindrance, but a simple lack of belief could be overcome by the actions of God. Resistance would be troublesome.
By analogy, a larval insect that needs to pupate (die) and be “resurrected” as a butterfly or some such must go through certain stages or transformations to complete the process. Now as rational beings with a spiritual aspect our transformation requires cooperation with the transformative action of God (grace) that enables our metamorphosis to occur. Someone who doesn’t believe in the possibility of transformation would likely encounter difficulties when cooperation in change is necessary. Someone who does believe and sincerely tries to find out what is necessary to do their part is much more likely to have a successful outcome. Someone who actively resists change and prefers their larval existence may be completely limiting the possibility.
Bradski, you are right, you cannot choose to believe what you do not know, but you can choose to reject what you do know or not sufficiently pursue what is quite plausible knowing that a great deal hangs on it.
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TheoloJer
Guest
I remember reading one of Jesus’ parable in the gospels (I believe it was Matthew) where he talked how not everybody who declares Jesus is Lord shall enter the Kingdom of Heaven-- in it, he addressed of how at the gates of heaven, people who claimed to do good works in Christ’s name, or any self proclaimed Christian who has an act of self-righteousness, may end up being rejected because they were not fully devoted to him in soul and spirit (which is the character on the inside).
It could be possible that people of other faith’s may end up seeing heaven. But I don’t want to put myself in the spotlight of controversy or risk crossing unorthodox territories. Bottom line, I"m not sure.
It could be possible that people of other faith’s may end up seeing heaven. But I don’t want to put myself in the spotlight of controversy or risk crossing unorthodox territories. Bottom line, I"m not sure.
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JRKH
Guest
You are quite right, and I did know what you meant, but sometimes taking little detours like this can help one to think a bit differently…Something I am sure you will agree can be helpful to everyone (myself included)
On this subject of what happens at the point of death…you might be interested in something written by St Catherine of Sienna in her book called “Dialogues”. In this book she has asked four questions of the Father and recorded His answers. If you go HERE and look down about five or six paragraphs…you see a very interesting description of what happens at the point of death.
I like this description because it really speaks to the importance of how we live our lives (which is what you are asking about) and how our life choices really predispose us to choosing our own destination at death.
It also speaks to the critical nature of Love in the matter.
So - give it a quick read and let me know what you think
Understood, and if you asked this same question elsewhere…on a non-christian board…you might get a different set of criteria.
In all honesty, as I tried to say in my previous post…The really core issue of how we will be judged is Love…Agape…In so far as our actions go it will be how well we have Loved our neighbor - not just in an ordinary means but in ways that set us apart from the mainstream. This is why I suggested, not just looking at the 10 commandments, but reading Matthew chapters 5, 6, 7 - collectively known as the Sermon on the mount. In these Chapters, Jesus does not change the 10 commandments but he “redefines them”, expands upon them requiring more than his audience was use to.
In truth…most everyone thinks that they are a “good person”…and in truth most of us want to think of others as basically “good people”. But for the Christian, one who follows Christ, “good” is just not “good enough”. Perfection in Love must be the goal.
I’m glad of that because the last thing I wish to do is come off offensive or “holier than thou”.
Peace
James
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sophion
Guest
Dont you catholics believe in something called “Invincible Ignorance”. Doesnt that mean that a person who is SINCERELY wrong and yet has a clear conscience will be considered part of the “Invisible church” and be saved?
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clem456
Guest
Catholics don’t determine who is saved. God saves (which is Jesus’ name btw).
We do believe that the Church is the vehicle, if you will, for salvation. That salvation subsists in the Church, but is not limited to earthly -membership in- the Church. Note that -subsists in- is different than -consists of-.
So we can’t say who specifically is in God’s good graces, although an atheist would have a somewhat obvious problem. A-theism implies that person has God revealed to them and has rejected God. If you reject God then ummm, how can you have a relationship with God?
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sophion
Guest
But you determine that a Catholic CAN be saved. Cant you say the same with Atheists? Can they be saved as well after they die in disbelief?
they are atheists because they sincerely think the god revealed to them was fake.
as a side note, CAN muslims be saved?
CAN hindus be saved?
CAN Buddhists be saved?
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clem456
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Bballer32
Guest
No, i’m saying that there would be no difference if there was no God. Who determines what is right and wrong? Our conscience? HA! Where do our consciences get the thoughts of right and wrong?
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sophion
Guest
okay if thats what you believe. just clarifying. thanks.
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JRKH
Guest
The best thing here is to look HERE in the Catechism…Look around 847 for the specific comment…regarding people who have not heard the Gospel…
As for the matter of vincible and invincible ignorance…look HERE
I think that as you read through these you will find that it is more correct to say that one might be saved…Even is one erroneously rejects the concept of “God” (as presented to them) they cannot act contrary to the will of God and expect to be saved. The will of God (second only to Loving Him) is that we Love our neighbor as our self and to seek perfection in that unselfish Love.
So one must be very careful in understanding the idea of ignorance (vincible or invincible)…it cannot be seen as a “free pass” but rather a call to full honesty and diligent search
Hope this helps.
Peace
James
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sophion
Guest
says there:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation
ok so an atheist who had given up on the concept god, in catholic theology its practically unlikely for them to be saved.
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clem456
Guest
That would be a fairly obvious statement, the word Catholic need not even be mentioned.
A - Theist. A knowing rejection of God. The word itself says it all. In fact, God is eliminated at the start, the question is a non-starter.
You have to ask yourself,
Why would a person who has rejected another person,
want to spend the rest of his life
with that person?
What sense does that make?
Seems to me you must understand that and are simply being rhetorical, but may be living in fear of the mistake/regret factor. “What if I get there and find out I’m wrong?”
Why would you want to gamble with that?
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JCnMe
Guest
Actually God so loved the WORLD that He sent his only begotten Son to save the WORLD-all of His children… we are all saved-our charge is to not throw that gift back in God’s face…and only He can decide what that offense would consist of…quite frankly I think the fastest way to eliminate our own progression to God-would be to make someone else feel they have no chance of getting there by setting ourselves up as if we speak for God… in judging others -we judge ourselves…the Church has guidelines-the Bible has guidelines…but ultimately it’s between you and Him…
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