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Beryllos
Guest
No rule was broken.
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Catholicguyteen
Guest
I wasn’t exactly sure where to post this thread. I assumed it went here because she was atheist and thus non-christian, but now that I think about it I should’ve put it in Moral Theology because I wanted a specifically Catholic perspective.
Thank you everybody for your help and your prayers. I will continue to pray for her.
Thank you everybody for your help and your prayers. I will continue to pray for her.
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IgnatianPhilo
Guest
As Christians we cannot know. What we do know is that regardless of your friends fate God is right in his judgement.
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josie_L
Guest
True, which is why most of us go to Purgatory first (only He can see the inner heart of each individual, be He atheist or otherwise), i.e., most of us don’t go directly to Heaven because our wills have to be completely oriented to His (and that goes for Catholics/Christians too).
p.s. We must not conflate or confuse the individual with the ideology/religion (anything other than Catholicism is false, but that does not mean that those professing something other than that are AUTOMATICALLY going to Hell).
I very much doubt she’s in hell. She may be in purgatory, but at least then she knows she’ll be in heaven someday.
Many kids at 15 say they’re “atheist” but really they probably don’t think about it too much. That said, even if she was a committed atheist, if she believed that fully and was searching for truth and living a moral life, then she probably is in heaven.
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rcwitness
Guest
Hebrews 11
And without faith it is impossible to please him. For whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him
And without faith it is impossible to please him. For whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him
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ShrodingersCat
Guest
You have an obligation to seek the truth though. Most of the atheists I know are ex-Catholics who haven’t studied philosophy or the reasons behind the church’s teaching, they’ve just decided that God makes no sense to them, that the Catholic Church is evil and they make no effort to investigate why the Church teaches what it does.
I’m not referring to the OP’s friend here, I’m just saying that humans have a tendency to be excellent at lying to themselves to protect their own interests. I would say my comment doesn’t apply to most atheists.
I also believe that God is merciful and that you cannot point to a single person on earth say that they are on the way to Hell (except for oneself I suppose). You can judge sins objectively, but there are so many potential mitigating circumstances that you should never judge people.
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TheAtheist
Guest
To the OP, my condolences for your loss.
To the rest of you: It never ceases to amaze me when i’m here or on any of the other various religious websites that run the gamut from everything from Islam to Buddhism just how much…acrimony… this question of what happens to the non-believer occurs within the metaphysics of your faith.
Look, i’m Indian, i’m a scientist, and i’ve never had a religious faith nor my father nor my father’s father…so maybe i’m missing some sort of nuance but…
IF i understand you folks correctly, than the guy who betrayed your Messiah, the Jew Iscariot, isn’t even condemned by your leaders as roasting over some fiery spit in the place you call hell.
That or at the least - its not in your payscale to make that evaluation.
So if Mr. Great Betrayer can’t be fully 100% said to be suffering some sort of eternal torment - how are any of you so certain that the OP’s teenage friend is suffering ?
Although I have to say, if this is truly her finally state of affairs, that you have a Deity willing to punish a confused teenage girl (because what teenager -isn’t- confused)…
…well… i just don’t know what to say to that.
I’d rather face oblivion. Oblivion isn’t capricious.
To the rest of you: It never ceases to amaze me when i’m here or on any of the other various religious websites that run the gamut from everything from Islam to Buddhism just how much…acrimony… this question of what happens to the non-believer occurs within the metaphysics of your faith.
Look, i’m Indian, i’m a scientist, and i’ve never had a religious faith nor my father nor my father’s father…so maybe i’m missing some sort of nuance but…
IF i understand you folks correctly, than the guy who betrayed your Messiah, the Jew Iscariot, isn’t even condemned by your leaders as roasting over some fiery spit in the place you call hell.
That or at the least - its not in your payscale to make that evaluation.
So if Mr. Great Betrayer can’t be fully 100% said to be suffering some sort of eternal torment - how are any of you so certain that the OP’s teenage friend is suffering ?
Although I have to say, if this is truly her finally state of affairs, that you have a Deity willing to punish a confused teenage girl (because what teenager -isn’t- confused)…
…well… i just don’t know what to say to that.
I’d rather face oblivion. Oblivion isn’t capricious.
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Trident_H
Guest
Nice. But did you really read all the other posts?
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Don_Ruggero
Guest
I think you have said it quite well…and quite poignantly.
I always take to heart what the moderators of this forum have written regarding the unknown number of people who read what “Catholics” post here and arrive at conclusions based thereon.
It is very sad to me, as a priest, that what has been written here in this thread at times is so alien to what Pope Francis would say…or even what the Lord Himself is supposed to have said to Saint Margaret Mary Alacoque when He appeared to her in a time of great trial and tribulation within Christendom and, holding forth to her His Sacred Heart in His outstretched hand, said to her: “Behold this Heart which has so loved men.”
Perhaps, as this young girl was dying, that is exactly what He said to her, to resolve Her doubt and uncertainty as to who He is and how much He loved.
What happened in those last moments of her life is between Him and her. He is mercy. He is love. We do well to pray for her soul…but I am not anxious in the least.
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Graceful_Lamb
Guest
Your question is above my pay scale.
However, I would say pray to God for your friend’s soul. Pray that she will (or is) in Heaven with her other passed on relatives.
I will pray for the repose of your friend’s soul.
However, I would say pray to God for your friend’s soul. Pray that she will (or is) in Heaven with her other passed on relatives.
I will pray for the repose of your friend’s soul.
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rcwitness
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I see the overwhelming majority stating that we don’t know, because we do not know the hearts of men. Therefore, as men who realize we need the Grace of our creator to forgive our trespasses against Him, and provide life instead of death, we certainly do not substitute ourselves for the judge of men’s souls. The Church was given the Ministry of the Revelation of our creator’s good love and forgiveness to us! This is our hope and duty… to be thankful for Him and what He does for us.
Faith is freely accepted because He draws us to Himself. It is the belief in things unsceen, but understood with confidence through conviction of heart. I know I did not create myself, and I believe I was created. I believe I was created to rely on my creator to sustain and guide me. I believe I have failed at this, many times, and our creator is all perfect, since life is sustained despite my old, corrupted nature. The Scriptures bear witness to His call to men throughout our history. I hear and recognize His voice in Jesus, who spoke so much differently than men who are tainted with sin.
Judas’ sin and rejection of Christ’s lordship is condemned by the Church. And it certainly does not look good for his fate. He is called the “son of perdition” by the Lord. It is very likely he did not repent unto forgiveness. But we just don’t know his final state of heart. And we confess that through Jesus, all sins are able to be washed when we turn to Him for grace. Judas did not appear to do this, since he hanged himself. This is why we cannot call him a Saint. He showed a bad example as one who overcomes.
We believe God is Just, and knows and considers all things. A young child has much less culpability than a mature adult. One must be at odds with God to be rejected by Him. Whoever does not judge, will not be judged. Whoever says, “you fool” to another, is liable to the fire of hell.
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ShrodingersCat
Guest
Some Catholics might think that atheists are condemned to Hell; they are wrong. It’s not Church teaching. Only God knows a person’s heart. But you can make objective judgements on actions. I can say “murder is objectively a mortal sin”, but I can’t say “X committed a murder and then died straight away, so X is in Hell”.
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Peebo
Guest
Like everyone… an atheist has the option to believe or not believe…if they decide through their reasoning there is no God then why would they expect to go to heaven when they die …God doesn’t reject them…they reject God…if that were the case then what is the point of being a Christian…what was the point of Jesus Christ dying for our sins that we might believe and be saved…we could all be atheists and still go to heaven because God is merciful…of course there are situations where some mental condition or traumatic occurrence might cause someone to question if there is a God…only God can judge the heart of those people as with all of us…even Jesus said at the final judgement that not everyone who said Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven…but only those who have done the will of the Father…that doesn’t sound promising even for some who call themselves Christians…let alone atheists who have rejected him.
I find myself in the surprising position of agreeing with an atheist on a matter of faith.
(SHOCK, HORROR!!)Nobody knows who is in hell, Saint John Paul II even speculated that God’s mercy is so great that there might be nobody there.
The fact is that the only thing that puts a person in hell is a rejection of God. If the person is an atheist and doesn’t believe in God, but is searching for truth as best they can and ardently believes that they are on the right path, then there is a possibility of their salvation.
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openmind77
Guest
Of course atheists go to heaven just like believers (and so do communists, agnostics etc). However, if she died recently, she is probably in purgatory. But purgatory is not such a bad place as it is made out to be. Here is an interesting website on the process people go through: afterdeath.info/
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rcwitness
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Part of being a believer, is accepting that none of us are such good people and so innocent as to deserve heaven. That much we must come to terms with. It is a fundamental of the faith. And God’s only Son, Jesus, was truly heart broken to see that we all abandon God and sin.
A true athiest, according to the definition, is in a dangerous state!
Merriam-Webster
Atheism:
a) a disbelief in the existence of deity
b) the doctrine that there is no deity
If one struggles with the complete acceptance of the existence of God, it is different than professing as doctrine the rejection of the existence of Him!
A true athiest, according to the definition, is in a dangerous state!
Merriam-Webster
Atheism:
a) a disbelief in the existence of deity
b) the doctrine that there is no deity
If one struggles with the complete acceptance of the existence of God, it is different than professing as doctrine the rejection of the existence of Him!
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rcwitness
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Mark 16:16
He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.
He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.
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rcwitness
Guest
He does not need us to come to Him, but we need to come to Him. And He has even come to us, because we could never have gone to where He is.
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FabiusMaximus
Guest
I just had the same thing happen to me this week. A good friend of mine who is 26 years old recently passed away, it was unbearably painful. He also had stated he didn’t believe in God, though we never really debated religion.
I just pray for God’s infinite mercy and try to accept that God is the most righteous judge, and I’d rather have no one else judge his immortal soul, because he is good, just, and merciful.
My deepest condolences for you and for your friend’s family. It is truly heartbreaking.
Requiem aeternam dona ei, Domine, et lux perpetua luceat ei. Requiescat in pace. Amen.
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