Can an Eastern Catholic fulfill his Sunday obligation at an Orthodox DL?

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TP2 said:
I try to tell the Truth. You are completely correct in your assesments. That just shows how disunified Orthodoxy is. I have only been trying to make that attempt transparrent. I am not intentionally trying to be Triumphalistic, but clear. If someone wants to tell me that EO’s have it all… They don’t. They don’t even have a comprehensive Catechism that they can all rely on. I am just trying to push their buttons so that maybe they can push back and give me something to work with.

But you are absolutely correct and you make my point that EO’s sadly are not a unified Body of believers. That’s why dialogue with them on an individual level is the only way. My only issue is that if their First Among Equals accepts the validity of our Orders, shouldn’t they be inclined to? 🤷 Doesn’t that make them look kinda silly?
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Nice- trying to “push our buttons”- very becoming of a Priest. So in what diocese by the way are you? Who is your Bishop? Does he exist? I have a gut feeling you may not be what you claim to be. If I am incorrect, please prove me wrong and forgive me.
 
trophybearer said:
Nice- trying to “push our buttons”- very becoming of a Priest. So in what diocese by the way are you? Who is your Bishop? Does he exist? I have a gut feeling you may not be what you claim to be. If I am incorrect, please prove me wrong and forgive me.
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The Truth always pushes buttons to the limit. You should know that. 😉

I reside in Chicago. Why do you think all Priests have to act a certain way? Did jesus act the way a priest acts today? Did Peter? James? John? Fr. Corapi? They are all priests. Every priest has his style. You may believe me or you may not. It is up to you. I am not asking for your permissions. I do accept your firgiveness for being obtuse.
 
TP2 said:
The Truth always pushes buttons to the limit. You should know that. 😉

I reside in Chicago. You may believe me or you may not. It is up to you. I am not asking for your permissions. I do accept your firgiveness for being obtuse.
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I do not believe you are a priest. You, of your own admission are attempting to “push buttons” and incite anger in people. You are trying to provoke others to sin. No priest who fears God would do that. You asked me for credentials and I provided them. You won’t provide yours? Until you do there is no reason for anyone here to believe you are a priest. Your behavior certainly lends you no credibility. Prove you are what you claim to be or go find somewhere else to harass and malign your fellow Christians. :mad:
 
trophybearer said:
I do not believe you are a priest. You, of your own admission are attempting to “push buttons” and incite anger in people. You are trying to provoke others to sin. No priest who fears God would do that. You asked me for credentials and I provided them. You won’t provide yours? Until you do there is no reason for anyone here to believe you are a priest. Your behavior certainly lends you no credibility. Prove you are what you claim to be or go find somewhere else to harass and malign your fellow Christians. :mad:
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I told you again. Our discussions are over.
 
TP2 said:
I told you again. Our discussions are over.
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You have an obligation as a cleric, if you are a priest, to give the name of the Bishop you are obedient to. You cannot cop out of this. No one is obligated to simply accept your word. You give plenty of reason for anyone to believe you are not what you claim to be. Prove it or move it!
 
James_Miller said:
Only if the person could not get to a Catholic church. A priest in an Orthodox bookshop told me I could go to Holy Communion in the Orthodox cathedral. But I can’t as there are 4 types of Catholic churches in this town: Latin, Malabar, Malankara and Kayana.
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Pardon a slight diversion based on my ignorance:

What is the Kayana rite? I have never heard of it.
 
Cecilianus said:
Pardon a slight diversion based on my ignorance:

What is the Kayana rite? I have never heard of it.
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It is not a rite.

It is essentially an ethnic group, the Knanaya, who make the assertion that their remote ancestors were full blooded Jews and later Jewish Christians. They have been, or try to be, endogamous. That means they traditionally will not marry people outside of their ethnic grouping. It is analogous to a caste, and perhaps that is why the phenomena survived in India but did not survive elsewhere in Christianity. They certifiably do perpetuate authentic Jewish customs.

Their numbers are split between Catholic and Orthodox (and others), but they will traditionally prefer to marry within their own community (even if outside of their church) rather than within their church but outside of the community. They remain numerically small, and it does lead one to speculate over how many people are lost through intermarriage in each generation.

Both the Papal Catholic church and Jacobite Orthodox church have allowed them to have their own bishops, at least in modern times, essentially institutionalizing the segregated church.

There is no way to know if they had any historic connection to the Ebionites of old, or the Judaizers St Paul contended with, but this group was outside the Roman empire and far to the east from a very early date and could not be forcibly suppressed if there had been an intention to do so. They have continued to practice their own Jewish rituals and customs within the context of Apostolic Christianity up to the present day.
 
Interesting thread. In our rite, we do not have a Sunday obligation that makes it a mortal sin to not attend Mass. There is no mortal/venial sin discussion in our rite. You are either taking a step closer to God, or a step away…length/width of step is inconsequential. We are obligated to attend as part of our obligation to our “Loved One.” If you love Someone so much, you want to spend as much time as possible with Them. So you attend DL as often as you can; Vespers if there is no priest. As to attending DL at another rite, Orthodox or Latin, as long as the ordinary is okay with it, it works. Most often, the division between Rome and Orthodoxy is such that many Orthodox pastors prefer Romans to attend their own masses as to not be confused about the unity of the two viewpoints. Because Latins do not accept the hierarchy of the Orthodox church as being equal (among a few other key points), why pretend by attending their DL instead of a Latin rite mass? I also have found they are less likely to refuse an Eastern rite Catholic, as there is a little more understanding between the two.

Do not put eastern rites in the same box as Latin rites…our “box” has wavy lines and indistinct lines at times. We are not cut from the same, legalistic cloth. It is more “flowy” which is what drew me there. It truly is different than the Latin churches, but we all believe pretty much the same thing. There are a few things we do differently and a few beliefs we have that diverge quite a lot, and those should be celebrated. To get caught up in the legality of worship sort of demeans it, to me. Of course, I would not include Protestant denominations in this discussion…I am only referring to Roman (and their inclusive Eastern rites) and Orthodox. When there is no other shelter in town, any Church, be it Orthodox or Eastern or Roman, is a safe place to take shelter, because Jesus is there.

I have known, and still know, quite a few priests who are multi-rite priests and minister where they are needed. I know a Syro-Malabar priest who is bi-ritual and speaks a dialect of the languages of India as his first language. Because of where he is now a pastor, he ministers in his own Syro-Malabar, along with the Tridentine Mass, the Novus Ordo, and does this in Spanish, Latin, and English. He goes where the people need him and ministers how they need him. It is pretty cool!!

I come from a very conservative, Tridentine only, perspective that has been altered almost beyond recognition to a more open, eastern rite view. What a ride it has been! And I am blessed…:byzsoc:
 
I would like to mention that Eastern Catholics in the middle east very often practice inter-communion with the Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox churches there. Are these Catholics breaking Canon law and not fulfilling Sunday obligation by following the directives of their hierarchs? While obviously my personal opinion does not hold the same weight as the Latin canon law and the Latin made Eastern Canon law, I find nothing objectionable to attending an Orthodox Church for Liturgy on a Sunday. If Christ is present in their Eucharist, then I can see no reason why it would be sinful to attend.

(Though one must be respectful of Orthodox Churches and follow their rules when attending their liturgies. Such as I wouldn’t expect to be communed at an Orthodox Church).
 
trophybearer said:
You have an obligation as a cleric, if you are a priest, to give the name of the Bishop you are obedient to. You cannot cop out of this. No one is obligated to simply accept your word. You give plenty of reason for anyone to believe you are not what you claim to be. Prove it or move it!
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Reverend Father TP2, trophybearer would probably not have doubted you had you handled yourself in a manner that behooves a priest. I am a frequent lurker here on the forum because I have much more to learn than I have to contribute. This forum has expanded my understanding of not only Eastern Catholicism, but of Eastern Orthodoxy and Latin Catholicism, as well. Before reading this forum I didn’t even know there was such a thing as the Oriental(Orthodox or Catholic) Church. In approaching this subject with humility and honesty I have gained many graces.

This is why I am saddened that a priest of God, and a priest of my own Church and rite is acting in such a manner as you are. There is no room for triumphalism in the Church, nor is there room for deliberate ignorance, to say nothing of common rudeness. I believe you owe the forum an apology.
 
trophybearer said:
You have an obligation as a cleric, if you are a priest, to give the name of the Bishop you are obedient to. You cannot cop out of this. No one is obligated to simply accept your word. You give plenty of reason for anyone to believe you are not what you claim to be. Prove it or move it!
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In my area, at least, a visiting priest must have an official document from his bishop attesting to his standing. I forget the name of the document. I remember one of our priests getting one before going on a long trip.
 
Cecilianus said:
Pardon a slight diversion based on my ignorance:

What is the Kayana rite? I have never heard of it.
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I have consistly concurred here and i am glad someone’s experience has confirmed what I said to the people here… I have not heard of any “Kayana” Rite. I would be careful going to a church that is not in union with True Orthodoxy. If your going to go to an Orthodox Church, go to one that is in union with Orthodoxy since there is no Catholic Church nearby or not at all…
 
kaiserhaus said:
Interesting thread. In our rite, we do not have a Sunday obligation that makes it a mortal sin to not attend Mass. …
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To better illustrate, sin is not expressed as the motivator, as can be seen in the CCEO which simply states that the Christian faithful are bound to participate, with no mention of serious (mortal) or less serious (venial) sin:
CCEO Canon 881
  1. The Christian faithful are bound by the obligation to participate on Sundays and feast days in the Divine Liturgy, or according to the prescriptions or legitimate customs of their own Church sui iuris, in the celebration of the divine praises.
  2. In order for the Christian faithful to fulfill this obligation more easily, the available time runs from the evening of the vigil until the end of the Sunday or feast day.
  3. The Christian faithful are strongly recommended to receive the Divine Eucharist on these days and indeed more frequently, even daily.
  4. The Christian faithful should abstain from those labors or business matters which impede the worship to be rendered to God, the joy which is proper to the Lord’s day, or to the proper relaxation of mind and body.
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And from Vatican II, Melkite Patriarch Maximos IV and of the Hierarchs of His Church at the Second Vatican Council, 1962, also states that the faithful should participate in the whole liturgy:
  1. The Obligation to Attend Mass on Sundays and Feast Days
    The schema rightly recommends to the pastors of souls that they make the faithful understand that they should participate in the whole and entire Mass, and not only in those parts that are called “essential” or “integral.” On this proposal, I hope that the council can find a way to prevent the casuistry of the moralists who have dissected the Mass into segments differing in nature and involving an unequal obligation. I am delighted that this schema, while retaining the obligation to attend Mass, has avoided talking of mortal sin and venial sin. Western moralists, since the Middle Ages, have indulged in two excesses: juridical excess, which seeks to specify rigorously the limits of serious sin, and the excess of casuistry, which corrupts the moral sense of the Christian. A Christian must be able to go to God without the constant threat of serious sin and of censures, and likewise ought to serve God a bit more fully than the subtleties of casuistry may indicate.
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melkite.org/xCouncil/Council-3.htm
 
chaldobyzantine said:
Can’t we just get along? We’re laity and I see no problem in attending either Catholic or Eastern Orthodox Churches seeing as we all recognize each others sacraments as valid. I know some extreme Catholics will quote the Catechism book on this issue and extreme Orthodox will quote Patriarch Alexy II, but honestly try to find conflicting differences when you attend either liturgy. No Catholic can tell me St Nectarios of Aegina wasn’t a holy man, nor can an Orthodox tell me St Charbel was a blasphemer. Worship Jesus, receive the sacrament, and go on about your life. 😉
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👍
 
To one of the responders, once again, the books are trotted out and quotes are quoted. Another poster is quite angry. Well, Christ did say the He came to divide, not unite! But if we are all believers, just attend Liturgy - eastern, western, orthodox. If you walk up to an Orthodox priest and explain your interest, they are most welcoming, as are any of the rites’ priests, and will invariably invite your participation. It is what Christians do for one another…we welcome, we offer hospitality, we share what we have with others. The vitriol saddens me. As the wife of a cleric, I see so often where words hurt…please tone it down and offer to forgive and move on. Christ does not want us bickering among ourselves. As we celebrated the Feast of the First Councils yesterday, isn’t that what we were reminded of? If we constantly and consistently focus on what separates us and makes us different, and argue if we have met a Sunday obligation for sitting at a different table, how will we ever become one Church? The bickering over knowledge and right & wrong is one of the factors that drove us East-ward. Please, love your brothers and sisters in faith as Christ loved His Church. I thought “catholic” meant universal…where is the universality in exclusion and specificity of rite…and right and wrong? Something to make my Monday sad…please stop infighting…we should be strong to evangelize those who do not have the fullness of the faith - our estranged brothers and sisters mired in Protestantism and others off-shoots. I always taught my children that “protest-ant” meant someone who was protesting against something, or some rule. Let us not behave that way, but rather, turn a loving embrace to those who differ from us. This world is scary enough and hard enough to survive in, intact. “Love one another as I have loved you.”:byzsoc:
 
kaiserhaus said:
If you walk up to an Orthodox priest and explain your interest, they are most welcoming, as are any of the rites’ priests, and will invariably invite your participation. It is what Christians do for one another…we welcome, we offer hospitality, we share what we have with others.
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I’m not sure whether I have misunderstood what you mean here when you say “will invariably invite your participation”. I have been welcomed at Orthodox churches in various places in No CA and am deeply grateful for these opportunities to worship there when my parish is not offering DL or some other liturgy such as Vespers. I have never presented myself for any sacrament in an Orthodox church. I was in a class recently with someone who had just taken a Holy Icons class at an Orthodox Monastery in No CA where she was welcomed to participate in the Liturgy of Preparation, and of Catechumens. They instructed her to leave when the catecheumens would depart, before the Liturgy of the Faithful. This would not have bothered me, personally. There is variability. Again, I may have misunderstood what you meant by “invariably invite your participation”.
As we celebrated the Feast of the First Councils yesterday, isn’t that what we were reminded of? If we constantly and consistently focus on what separates us and makes us different, and argue if we have met a Sunday obligation for sitting at a different table, how will we ever become one Church? …:byzsoc:
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I have not been following this thread because it’s too contentious. Like you, I would hope for a different focus.
 
kaiserhaus said:
To one of the responders, once again, the books are trotted out and quotes are quoted. Another poster is quite angry. Well, Christ did say the He came to divide, not unite! But if we are all believers, just attend Liturgy - eastern, western, orthodox. If you walk up to an Orthodox priest and explain your interest, they are most welcoming, as are any of the rites’ priests, and will invariably invite your participation. It is what Christians do for one another…we welcome, we offer hospitality, we share what we have with others. The vitriol saddens me. As the wife of a cleric, I see so often where words hurt…please tone it down and offer to forgive and move on. Christ does not want us bickering among ourselves. As we celebrated the Feast of the First Councils yesterday, isn’t that what we were reminded of? If we constantly and consistently focus on what separates us and makes us different, and argue if we have met a Sunday obligation for sitting at a different table, how will we ever become one Church? The bickering over knowledge and right & wrong is one of the factors that drove us East-ward. Please, love your brothers and sisters in faith as Christ loved His Church. I thought “catholic” meant universal…where is the universality in exclusion and specificity of rite…and right and wrong? Something to make my Monday sad…please stop infighting…we should be strong to evangelize those who do not have the fullness of the faith - our estranged brothers and sisters mired in Protestantism and others off-shoots. I always taught my children that “protest-ant” meant someone who was protesting against something, or some rule. Let us not behave that way, but rather, turn a loving embrace to those who differ from us. This world is scary enough and hard enough to survive in, intact. “Love one another as I have loved you.”:byzsoc:
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I don’t celebrate Division just as I don’t celebrate inconceivably “Sin”. You are showing exactly what The Protestants do when the celebrate “Reformation” Sunday every year. That is wrong. Catholics don’t celebrate SIN! You should be ashamed of yourself for even suggesting such a hideous notion. You made me angry. Holy anger is justifiable. :mad:
 
I am personally offended by this last poster. I do not encourage people to sin. And it is wrong of you to judge me. I, too, would be so sad that you would, as a priest, guide me in anger. I believe that to be with our Lord is my primary goal in life. Whether I do so at Evening Prayer or at Divine Liturgy on the weekends is my discretion. Yes, the goal is to attend DL and I rarely, if ever, miss that obligation. But my obligation is as a worshipper, not as a slave or indentured servant. I think you are missing the point of portions of this thread. How can you compel someone to attend DL or Mass who has no relationship with His God? The relationship should impel you to attend DL, not a rule. The flavor of what you say makes people want to disregard the messenger, as well as the message. Most priests I know have this wonderful internal dialogue going and it permeates everything they do…their Love of God and their desire to SERVE His people. You do no one any service by spewing anger and hatred towards them. The days of the fiery protestant preacher yelling and scaring his parish from on high are pretty much over. In this day and age of instant knowledge and instant relationship, most clerics reach out in love to encourage the relationship with God. They do not yell and scare people away. Most certainly, I do not encourage sin and I believe that your vitriol towards me is so very unwarranted. I would appreciate not having it directed my way in the future. Thank you.:tsktsk:
 
TP2 said:
OK. I see no mention of Patriarch Bartholomew or any relationship to other Orthodox Churches which leads me to believe The Antichian Church is not in union with “NEW ROME”. I sent them an email so I will await an answer. Look, I don’t know everything and this shows me Orthodox Churches are not all in Union with All the other Orthodox Churches. Very confusing.
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Even though the Ecumenical Patriarch has taken over some elements of protos in Orthodoxy, one’s Orthodoxy is certainly not defined by being “in communion” with Constantinople. There is no equivalent to the Vatican or the Pope in Holy Orthodoxy as in Roman Catholicism.
 
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