T
Todd520
Guest
Would you please explain. I missed your point or pun
- Status
M
Murdock
Guest
The OP reminds me of a scene in the movie “The Other Side of Heaven”, which is a true story of an LDS missionary from Idaho serving in Tonga in the 1950s. At one point, the missionary is serving as Branch President. One of his Counselors in the Branch Presidency, who is a Tongan who makes his living selling copra, tells the missionary that every month he gives the copra buyer a bottle of liquor to make sure that he gets the best price for his copra. The missionary indignantly exclaims “alcohol is against our religion!” The Counselor replies: “Drinking alcohol is against our religion. Giving alcohol – is business!” The missionary forbids his Counselor to give alcohol any more, and the Counselor is really ticked off, but the implication is that he obeys. (I saw the movie years ago so I may not have this exactly correct.)
Murdock
Murdock
R
RebeccaJ
Guest
Can a single man give a woman a New Years kiss and remain chaste?
That being said, you may just be confusing chastity with abstinence. It happens a lot.
R
RebeccaJ
Guest
Definitely this is how LDS think, since it is apparent there will be restaurants serving alcohol in the LDS owned City Creek Center (mall).
deseretnews.com/article/705341832/Will-City-Creek-get-liquor-licenses.html
W
wmscott
Guest
If I may ask, when you say “we abstain from alcohol because we believe that God has warned us, as a people to be careful about what we take into our bodies” What people are you talking about and are you quoting the BoM or the Bible? Thanks
P
PaulDupre
Guest
I was responding to Pahoran’s assertion that consumption of alcohol is not sinful in and of itself, and that the LDS prohibition on alcohol is a matter of discipline, not of morality.
Sex outside of marriage is sinful in and of itself, so your comparison fails.
And my question goes unanswered. No surprise there.
T
Todd520
Guest
I’m new to LDS but will agree with Pahoran’s assertion that drinking is not inherently sinful in and of itself. However, it is both a matter of discipline and morality.
You need to expand your question before i can answer the Moral undertones.
P
PaulDupre
Guest
So is it your position that drinking alcoholic beverages is inherently sinful for both LDS and gentile? I ask because that is the position of the LDS that I know. Same for coffee.
M
Murdock
Guest
From his (or her?) use of Latin legal maxims, I suspect that Pahoran may be a fellow member of the bar. (pun intended)
I have, at least, reservations about Poharan’s and Diana’s theory that drinking alcohol is not a sin in itself but, rather, is a sin only because we made a covenant to not do so.
It is a well-known historical fact that, in the 19th century, the WoW was not mandatory as it is now. I have heard 19th century LDS keeping of the WoW characterized as more a matter of “avoiding the world” as opposed to a matter of health. Renowned LDS theologian Stephanie Meyer tells the press that she drinks an occasional Diet Pepsi (presumably with caffeine) and then pontificates to them that the WoW is about “avoiding addictions that interfere with our agency.” Frankly, I do not see how any of the foregoing is consistent with the WoW’s promise that we will receive both spiritual and physical benefits by keeping the WoW:
"And all saints who remember to keep and do these sayings, walking in obedience to the commandments, shall receive health in their navel and marrow to their bones;
And shall find wisdom and great treasures of knowledge, even hidden treasures;
And shall run and not be weary, and shall walk and not faint.
And I, the Lord, give unto them a promise, that the destroying angel shall pass by them, as the children of Israel, and not slay them. Amen. "
D&C 89:18-21. This is obviously about health. Corinthians says that our bodies are temples of God. So, disregarding the WoW, and thus doing something unhealthy, is defiling the temple. Moreover, the Church teaches that we should avoid harmful things even if they are not specifically mentioned in the WoW (Sister Meyer, the Church says that includes overeating), which also suggests that the “health/defilement of the temple theory” is sound and that the “covenant theory” is unsound.
Additionally, the WoW contains a verse which I think is given too little attention:
“Given for a principle with promise [by God in the verses quoted above], adapted to the capacity of the weak and the weakest of all saints, who are or can be called saints.”
D&C 89:3. I really do not know what this means, but here is a guess: Maybe some of us could drink alcohol safely, but there are others who cannot, and we can help protect them by unity with them.
Under Pahoran’s and Diana’s theory that the sin is in the breaking of a covenant, you can be a good Mormon and be a bartender because the bar patrons never made the covenant. Under the “health/defilement of the temple” theory, which appears to me to be the theory consistent with the scripture, the bartender is earning his living by handing the instrument of harm and defilement to the bar patron. It is the bar patron’s choice to drink, and it is his or her personal business, but is it a sin for a Mormon to be that involved?
Murdock
I have, at least, reservations about Poharan’s and Diana’s theory that drinking alcohol is not a sin in itself but, rather, is a sin only because we made a covenant to not do so.
It is a well-known historical fact that, in the 19th century, the WoW was not mandatory as it is now. I have heard 19th century LDS keeping of the WoW characterized as more a matter of “avoiding the world” as opposed to a matter of health. Renowned LDS theologian Stephanie Meyer tells the press that she drinks an occasional Diet Pepsi (presumably with caffeine) and then pontificates to them that the WoW is about “avoiding addictions that interfere with our agency.” Frankly, I do not see how any of the foregoing is consistent with the WoW’s promise that we will receive both spiritual and physical benefits by keeping the WoW:
"And all saints who remember to keep and do these sayings, walking in obedience to the commandments, shall receive health in their navel and marrow to their bones;
And shall find wisdom and great treasures of knowledge, even hidden treasures;
And shall run and not be weary, and shall walk and not faint.
And I, the Lord, give unto them a promise, that the destroying angel shall pass by them, as the children of Israel, and not slay them. Amen. "
D&C 89:18-21. This is obviously about health. Corinthians says that our bodies are temples of God. So, disregarding the WoW, and thus doing something unhealthy, is defiling the temple. Moreover, the Church teaches that we should avoid harmful things even if they are not specifically mentioned in the WoW (Sister Meyer, the Church says that includes overeating), which also suggests that the “health/defilement of the temple theory” is sound and that the “covenant theory” is unsound.
Additionally, the WoW contains a verse which I think is given too little attention:
“Given for a principle with promise [by God in the verses quoted above], adapted to the capacity of the weak and the weakest of all saints, who are or can be called saints.”
D&C 89:3. I really do not know what this means, but here is a guess: Maybe some of us could drink alcohol safely, but there are others who cannot, and we can help protect them by unity with them.
Under Pahoran’s and Diana’s theory that the sin is in the breaking of a covenant, you can be a good Mormon and be a bartender because the bar patrons never made the covenant. Under the “health/defilement of the temple” theory, which appears to me to be the theory consistent with the scripture, the bartender is earning his living by handing the instrument of harm and defilement to the bar patron. It is the bar patron’s choice to drink, and it is his or her personal business, but is it a sin for a Mormon to be that involved?
Murdock
T
Todd520
Guest
Yes, I think the real sin is breaking the promise and where that may lead.
I think serving drinks is more an expression of poor Honesty towards that individual, since you believe it is ‘bad for the temple’ you shouldn’t make money off it.
I think serving drinks is more an expression of poor Honesty towards that individual, since you believe it is ‘bad for the temple’ you shouldn’t make money off it.
P
PaulDupre
Guest
I urge you to read all about Mormon history - the stuff your church doesn’t want you to know about. You owe it to yourself to really know your faith. That doesn’t just mean the things the church tells you, it also means the things they don’t tell you but should. You should read “An Insider’s View of Mormon Origins” by Grant Palmer, a current LDS in good standing (so you know it’s not an anti-Mormon book).
L
lax16
Guest
Todd - That is a very insightful answer.
I have often wondered how Marriott hotels (known to be Mormon owned by most) can offer pornography in their hotel rooms while having a Book of Mormon in the drawer next to the bed.
Any thoughts?
L
lax16
Guest
Would a Mormon work in Starbucks?Pahoran explained this quite well…I’m just going to add a point…perhaps two. First, as he mentioned, we don’t believe that drinking alchohol is in itself a sin; it’s a sin for us simply because we promised not to.
So, while an LDS bartender wouldn’t necessarily be a sinning bartender, I"m not certain how he could be a GOOD one…or perhaps he would be a very good one. (rambling, here, now…) I remember back in my real estate days…everybody lived on coffee, of course, but me. Everybody took turns making the coffee, and everybody else HATED it. One day everybody was out, and the only person left who could make the coffee for a meeting was, well, me.
So…I very carefully followed the directions and made what the folks there thought was the best coffee they ever had. From that day until the day I left, I was the official coffee maker. Why?
Because unlike everybody else, I just followed the directions on the can, and didn’t try to ‘tweak’ the recipe.I can see where doing that might be an asset in a bartender. He can concentrate on the showmanship and the recipes and not worry about fiddling with the drinks.
Or something.
We don’t think, after all, that drinking alcohol is a character flaw. Breaking ones’ promise, however, is.
I also have to wonder if you would have felt as comfortable making coffee in an office if you lived here in Utah?
It is a well-known fact that if you want the missionaries to stop coming to your house, answer the door with a beer in your hand. It is really looked down upon here (in Utah) to drink alcohol, smoke cigarettes, and use foul language. I mean, really looked down upon… (LDS kids are usually forbidden from playing with neigbor kids whose parents consume alcohol or smoke cigarettes - not so in California!)
Also, isn’t alcohol consumption considered breaking a commandment and prohibits one from temple worthiness?
D
dianaiad
Guest
Fairly easily…if not as comfortable as one would think. The Marriott hotel chain is not wholly owned by the Marriott family any more, and such decisions are not made by the Marriotts, but are voted on by a board of directors…who can, do, and HAVE over-ridden the Marriott family wishes in regard to this matter. It seems that the intertainment provider they are contracted with, LodgeNet Entertainment Group, will not provide ANY in room entertainment if they cannot also provide R and 'unrated " (read, porn) along with it.
When the Mariott family CAN eliminate porn, they do. They also own Ritz-Carlton, y’know, and Ritz Carlton does not offer pay per view porn.
Frankly, I’m surprised that they still allow the Book of Mormon in the night stand drawers.
I think that, if the Marriott family really DID own Mariott, there wouldn’t be any porn. However, why let any facts (like the one about the Mariott family not owning enough of the company and having to put up with being overruled about stuff like this…) interfere with a good Mormon bash?
Diana
T
Todd520
Guest
You have posed a moral dilema that any Christian hotel owner must consider,
Since most of their customers are non-LDS I see the need to offer competitive services with other hotel chains.
L
lax16
Guest
You know, it was about 6-8 years ago that we were staying in downtown SLC at the Marriott and there was a BoM in the drawer in the night stand.
Maybe not anymore?
L
lax16
Guest
Correction: I just called the SLC Marriott on 75 North West Temple and asked the receptionist if they had the Book of Mormon in their hotel rooms. Her answer: “We do. However, if there is not one, let us know and we will have it brought up to you.”
L
lax16
Guest
Interesting point.
However, this particular hotel is very close to the SLC Temple and must certainly attract many Mormons as well as “us very conservative Catholics.”
It is really weird - The Book of Mormon and pornography in the same room.
Diana has pointed out that the Marriott family is not in charge anymore - how then do they get the BoM in the rooms?
R
RebeccaJ
Guest
I tried that, it didn’t work.
T
Todd520
Guest
Since they are a ‘chain’ of hotels, I think excluding services in one downtown hotel would be inappropriate and reek of abusive influence by the church, or censurship (not the right word but closest i could find)
I guess the BoM gets in the rooms the same way Bibles get into hotel rooms across the country, some organization provides them free of charge. Google International Bible Society or Gideons for more on bibles.
So, how is this any different than the dilemma faced by other christian hotel owners?
- Status