Can an organization be one with several leaders?

[The_Scott]

Hi,

This question is geared more towards Eastern Orthodox, but Prostestants/non-denominational/non-Catholic can chip in as well.

Can an organization be one with several leaders?

Let me explain:

The Nicene Creed states that “* in One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church?” I’d like to focus on the adjective “one” in that sentence.

Now, Catholics say that, while Christ is the Head of the Church, the Pope is the Vicar (representative) of Christ and therefore the temporal leader of the Church. There can only be one pope at any time. Many can claim the papacy (think the Great Schism in during the High Middle Ages), but only one of the papal claimants is the legitimate pontiff. Furthermore, the pope is the leader of the body of bishops, and therefore the leader of the bishopric within the Church. There is only one leader.

Now, Eastern Orthodox, as I understand it, claim that all bishops are equal in power and status, with the Patriarch (Bishop) of Constantinople being the first among equals (with only a primacy of honor - nothing more). So you could say that the Eastern Orthodox have several dozen leaders, since no one bishop claims primacy.

Now, with that in mind, let me re-ask that question: can an organization (in this case, the Church) be “one” (as stated in the Nicene Creed) with multiple leaders (bishops)? Can it be unified with, more or less, a confederation of Sees?

I’d like to hear what people think!

Thank you!

Scott*

 

[Tony888]

Why the focus on ‘one leader’ I would assume it’s really about the Churches being united in pupose

An organization can have a single leader but not have unity of purpose, it can be falling apart at the seams.

Conversley, families often have two leaders that are completely united in purpose. The members (family) see the parents united as one, without conflict.

 

[Catholic90]

The ONE leader is Christ…

 

[JRKH]

Hi,

This question is geared more towards Eastern Orthodox, but Prostestants/non-denominational/non-Catholic can chip in as well.

Can an organization be one with several leaders?

Without going any further and just answering this part…YES an organization can be one with several leaders. This is normally viewed as leadership by committee and might have a rotating or revolving chairmanship or whatever.
Likewise large corporations might have a CEO, a COO, CFO, a President, a Chairman of the board, and two or more major stockholders, all of whom, to some extent, share in the leadership of the company…

I realize that you are thinking more in terms of religion, but “organization” can entail a great many different groups and structures.

As to the rest of your post, I’m sure there will be lively discussion…

Peace
James

 

[Rawb]

The Orthodox Church has One head, who is Christ. We have One faith, which is the Faith of the Apostles. We are One because of our one faith, not because we have one supreme bishop.

 

[AntalKalnoky]

Our Orthodox brothers also have somewhat of a Hierarchy, with Metropolitans and finally Patrirch. Let’s not forget that our dogmatic and cannon law superiors are The Magesterium, with agreement by The Pope, in Overview. These are details, but important ones. The Holy Father is the Vicar Of Christ, administrator, Moral Leader, as Christ is. The Patriarchs are similar. Our 22 Eastern Church brothers recognize the Primacy of the Holy Father, as the Orthodox virtually do already. Not many know that The Orthodox are close to full Communion with the Vicar, and Roman Church, following the Council of Ravenna recent talks. :byzsoc:

 

[Mark_of_Ephesus]

Our Orthodox brothers also have somewhat of a Hierarchy, with Metropolitans and finally Patrirch. Let’s not forget that our dogmatic and cannon law superiors are The Magesterium, with agreement by The Pope, in Overview. These are details, but important ones. The Holy Father is the Vicar Of Christ, administrator, Moral Leader, as Christ is. The Patriarchs are similar. Our 22 Eastern Church brothers recognize the Primacy of the Holy Father, as the Orthodox virtually do already. Not many know that The Orthodox are close to full Communion with the Vicar, and Roman Church, following the Council of Ravenna recent talks. :byzsoc:

The patriarchs are heads in the sense that they have primacy, but they do not have jurisdictional power over other bishops (only a synod has that authority). All bishops possess the same authority.

I would also be wary of high hopes for inter-communion. There is an enormous amount of things dividing us. All of these would need to be sorted out before union could be established.

 

[GaryTaylor]

There is NO DEMOCRACY in the Catholic Church. Its a Kingdom and Gods at that which Christ “is” King and through Divine Providence he gave St Peter “authority”. A very scary word in this day and age. But as Plato correctly stated a Democracy cannot survive. And as Dr. King stated. “A lie cannot live”.

 

[The_Scott]

Well this theory was quickly shot down.
Nevermind.

 

[ltwin]

There is NO DEMOCRACY in the Catholic Church. Its a Kingdom and Gods at that which Christ “is” King and through Divine Providence he gave St Peter “authority”. A very scary word in this day and age. But as Plato correctly stated a Democracy cannot survive. And as Dr. King stated. “A lie cannot live”.

Synodical government in and of itself isn’t necessarily democratic … but I get what you are saying. You think that because Christ has one Church of which he is the head, then he needs one representative to preside over his Church.

There are churches which do practice actual democracy. Some of these churches are mainline churches and they have horribly fallen into heresy and increasing irrelevance.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Not just because a synod decides, it means its a democracy. The Orthodox Church does not follow any democratic model in the world today. None of the bishops are chosen by the people, therefore they are not representatives of the people in a sense that congress or parliament is.

And this is a false assumption by many Catholics about the Pope. The Pope doesn’t decide by himself. Its like saying the President of the United States does the governing of the country by himself. The Pope is helped by all the Bishops of the Church. Even the Papacy itself has many offices like the various congregations in the Roman Curia. They are not all following the Pope around with a pen and paper waiting for the Pope to say something and then they make that into law. The Catholic Church, even the Roman Catholic Church by itself is also run by a synod. Everything the Pope does is in consultation and dialogue with other bishops.

 

[JRKH]

Not just because a synod decides, it means its a democracy. The Orthodox Church does not follow any democratic model in the world today. None of the bishops are chosen by the people, therefore they are not representatives of the people in a sense that congress or parliament is.

And this is a false assumption by many Catholics about the Pope. The Pope doesn’t decide by himself. Its like saying the President of the United States does the governing of the country by himself. The Pope is helped by all the Bishops of the Church. Even the Papacy itself has many offices like the various congregations in the Roman Curia. They are not all following the Pope around with a pen and paper waiting for the Pope to say something and then they make that into law. The Catholic Church, even the Roman Catholic Church by itself is also run by a synod. Everything the Pope does is in consultation and dialogue with other bishops.

 

[Contarini]

Hi,

This question is geared more towards Eastern Orthodox, but Prostestants/non-denominational/non-Catholic can chip in as well.

Can an organization be one with several leaders?

Let me explain:

The Nicene Creed states that “* in One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church?” I’d like to focus on the adjective “one*” in that sentence.

Now, Catholics say that, while Christ is the Head of the Church, the Pope is the Vicar (representative) of Christ and therefore the temporal leader of the Church. There can only be one pope at any time. Many can claim the papacy (think the Great Schism in during the High Middle Ages), but only one of the papal claimants is the legitimate pontiff. Furthermore, the pope is the leader of the body of bishops, and therefore the leader of the bishopric within the Church. There is only one leader.

Now, Eastern Orthodox, as I understand it, claim that all bishops are equal in power and status, with the Patriarch (Bishop) of Constantinople being the first among equals (with only a primacy of honor - nothing more). So you could say that the Eastern Orthodox have several dozen leaders, since no one bishop claims primacy.

Now, with that in mind, let me re-ask that question: can an organization (in this case, the Church) be “one” (as stated in the Nicene Creed) with multiple leaders (bishops)? Can it be unified with, more or less, a confederation of Sees?

I’d like to hear what people think!

Thank you!

Scott

Why not? It seems to me that the argument “a unified church must have one earthly leader–and Jesus doesn’t count because He’s ascended into heaven” is a highly worldly one and should have no weight whatsoever with Christians.

Now there are excellent reasons to believe from Scripture and Tradition that Jesus established St. Peter and his successors as a center of unity within the worldwide fellowship that is the Church. But a priori arguments based on worldly assumptions about what is needed for unity only distort the nature of Petrine primacy, it seems to me.

Edwin

 

[Cavaradossi]

The Orthodox Church has One head, who is Christ. We have One faith, which is the Faith of the Apostles. We are One because of our one faith, not because we have one supreme bishop.

Agreed. Furthermore, if one were to compare the statements made by several Orthodox posters here on the basic tenets of our faith, he would find that we are pretty much all in agreement, even though many of us are in different jurisdictional churches. We are united in faith, not by jurisdiction.

 

[AntalKalnoky]

Not just because a synod decides, it means its a democracy. The Orthodox Church does not follow any democratic model in the world today. None of the bishops are chosen by the people, therefore they are not representatives of the people in a sense that congress or parliament is.

And this is a false assumption by many Catholics about the Pope. The Pope doesn’t decide by himself. Its like saying the President of the United States does the governing of the country by himself. The Pope is helped by all the Bishops of the Church. Even the Papacy itself has many offices like the various congregations in the Roman Curia. They are not all following the Pope around with a pen and paper waiting for the Pope to say something and then they make that into law. The Catholic Church, even the Roman Catholic Church by itself is also run by a synod. Everything the Pope does is in consultation and dialogue with other bishops.

Constantine, you still misunderstand some Basics: The Pope, The Patriarch, Bidips, Metropolitans All work for Jesus, His Church. They hlp, understand the People of Our Lord; but the People Never rule; it has never been a Democracy. We are all the Church our Our Lord/Saviour; not Our will.

 

[ltwin]

Constantine, you still misunderstand some Basics: The Pope, The Patriarch, Bidips, Metropolitans All work for Jesus, His Church. They hlp, understand the People of Our Lord; but the People Never rule; it has never been a Democracy. We are all the Church our Our Lord/Saviour; not Our will.

I was watching the live streaming of the Assemblies of God (USA)'s General Council business session yesterday. The General Council is a body of all licensed and ordained AG pastors and 1 lay delegate elected by each AG church. The thing the General Superintendent kept saying was something to the affect that “we believe the Holy Spirit speaks through the people of God.” So it is not that churches who practice democracy are doing it because they believe that they should be able to control “their” church. It is because they believe that when the people of God come together after earnestly praying and seeking His face that God will speak through His people and direct ecclesiastical bodies to do His will in His church.

 

[Jim_Dandy]

There is no unified ‘Orthodox Church’ which one can join. The Orthodox are autonomous ethnic and nationalistic Churches with no overarching point of unity. They have synods that make decisions only for their own jurisdictions, not for the whole of Orthodoxy. One has to decide whether to join the Greeks, the Romanians, the Russians, the Ukranians, etc., if one converts to Orthodoxy. There is no ultimate authority. The Church founded by Christ is ONE – not divided by ethnic and nationalistic considerations.

The answer to the OP is no. Of course, he is aided by the curia, the bishops, the cardinals, the faithful, but the “buck stops at the Pope’s desk.” One Church, one leader on earth, the Pope (Father), one leader in heaven, Christ.

 

[Rawb]

There is no unified ‘Orthodox Church’ which one can join.

Not true.

The Orthodox are autonomous ethnic and nationalistic Churches with no overarching point of unity.

Not true.

They have synods that make decisions only for their own jurisdictions, not for the whole of Orthodoxy.

This is true, to an extent.

One has to decide whether to join the Greeks, the Romanians, the Russians, the Ukranians, etc., if one converts to Orthodoxy.

Not true.

There is no ultimate authority.

Not true.

The Church founded by Christ is ONE – not divided by ethnic and nationalistic considerations.

This is true, and is true of Holy Orthodoxy.

The answer to the OP is no. Of course, he is aided by the curia, the bishops, the cardinals, the faithful, but the “buck stops at the Pope’s desk.” One Church, one leader on earth, the Pope (Father), one leader in heaven, Christ.

Just because The Church doesn’t follow your perception of “oneness” or how she should be One doesn’t mean she isn’t. Almost everything you said of Orthodoxy in your post is untrue.

 

[Bluegoat]

There is no unified ‘Orthodox Church’ which one can join. The Orthodox are autonomous ethnic and nationalistic Churches with no overarching point of unity. They have synods that make decisions only for their own jurisdictions, not for the whole of Orthodoxy. One has to decide whether to join the Greeks, the Romanians, the Russians, the Ukranians, etc., if one converts to Orthodoxy. There is no ultimate authority. The Church founded by Christ is ONE – not divided by ethnic and nationalistic considerations.

The answer to the OP is no. Of course, he is aided by the curia, the bishops, the cardinals, the faithful, but the “buck stops at the Pope’s desk.” One Church, one leader on earth, the Pope (Father), one leader in heaven, Christ.

This is one of the silliest posts I have ever read. It is so factually untrue it is hard to believe it is a mistake.

As for the OP - I don’t think it is possible to make any kind of logical argument to show that to be unified an organization needs one supreme leader. It is possible to imagine that an organization could be unified in any number of ways other than through one leader. In fact, I would suggest that having one supreme leader could actually be a cause of disunity in some cases.

Certainly, I am sure the Holy Spirit could ensure unity in the Church in any number of ways.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Constantine, you still misunderstand some Basics: The Pope, The Patriarch, Bidips, Metropolitans All work for Jesus, His Church. They hlp, understand the People of Our Lord; but the People Never rule; it has never been a Democracy. We are all the Church our Our Lord/Saviour; not Our will.

When did I say anything contrary to what you said? I just said that the Church is not a democracy?