Can an organization be one with several leaders?

[Jim_Dandy]

Not true.
Not true.
This is true, to an extent.
Not true.
Not true.
This is true, and is true of Holy Orthodoxy.

Just because The Church doesn’t follow your perception of “oneness” or how she should be One doesn’t mean she isn’t. Almost everything you said of Orthodoxy in your post is untrue.

Sorry that you and bluegoat are offended. I’m teachable. I looked into Orthodoxy before I became a Catholic. Where is this unified Orthodox Church that is not Greek, not Russian, not Romanian, not Ukrainian, not Bulgarian, IOW not cultural, ethnic, or nationalistic, which speaks with one voice?

I couldn’t stomach (literally, it made me sick) the recent Eastern Orthodox capitulation to contraception. And I’m confounded by the two divorces, three marriages policy, which is contrary to the teaching of Genisis and of Christ in Mt 5:32.

I couldn’t figure out whether to be Oriental or Eastern Orthodox. You don’t recognize each other. Within Eastern Orthodoxy, there is conflict.

That’s my twocents: I expect that you will disagree.

Again, this is not intended to offend, but this is how I see it. .

 

[Bluegoat]

Sorry that you and bluegoat are offended. I’m teachable. I looked into Orthodoxy before I became a Catholic. Where is this unified Orthodox Church that is not Greek, not Russian, not Romanian, not Ukrainian, not Bulgarian, IOW not cultural, ethnic, or nationalistic, which speaks with one voice?

I couldn’t stomach (literally, it made me sick) the recent Eastern Orthodox capitulation to contraception. And I’m confounded by the two divorces, three marriages policy, which is contrary to the teaching of Genisis and of Christ in Mt 5:32.

I couldn’t figure out whether to be Oriental or Eastern Orthodox. You don’t recognize each other. Within Eastern Orthodoxy, there is conflict.

That’s my twocents: I expect that you will disagree.

Again, this is not intended to offend, but this is how I see it. .

Orthodoxy is one faith and church. I don’t think I can think of another Christian group that has as clear sense of themselves as the Orthodox. Yes, there can be disagreements between those who are members of the Orthodox Church. That is also true, historically and presently, in Catholisism. THese things are worked out, or someone eventually breaks off from the main group. This is a result of fallen human nature.

The adage of course is to look at your own beam before your brother’s mote. In this case, I’d suggest that these fairly small issues between parts of the Orthodox Church should be compared to say, the beam in the Western eye that includes the Protestant Reformation, or the schism with the Old Catholics, or the SSPX. There are others who have strayed away and been restored. Even in Catholicism there are sometimes periods when it is unclear what the status of various members is.

As far as nationalism, go to any country that is in fact Catholic culturally, and you will find people who express their culture religiously, identifying the two. At one time, Irish and Italian Catholics marrying was a mixed marriage. Or even look at how the Eastern Catholic Churches have been treated from time to time.

If you are looking for a group without these kinds of issues, I think you will simply have to by-pass the Church Militant.

As far as contraception and divorce - you are of course entitled to your opinion, but I wonder if you held those views before you were Catholic, or because the authority of the Church told you so. I think that given the bizarre way that annulments are handled in the CC, it is generally unwise for Catholics to disparage the divorce views of the Orthodox, which in practice are often more strict that Catholicism. And I would point out that the policy is perhaps not quite what you seem to be suggesting.

 

[Izdaari]

The Orthodox Church has One head, who is Christ. We have One faith, which is the Faith of the Apostles. We are One because of our one faith, not because we have one supreme bishop.

As a Christian who is neither Catholic nor Orthodox, this is what I would say too.

 

[KathleenGee]

Rome historically was the support of new churches in part because it was rich and strong. Disputes were resolved in Rome.

As the Church grew, so did its numbers, and disputes, and many other issues. I take the opposite, seeing the need of one person symbolizing the unity of both east and west, given Peter has primacy, and all have their own jurisdiction…but in communion.

Yesterday at Mass, our priest told us about two Protestant churches of the same…but they are in dispute and refuse to worship together.

Running one’s business/church is one thing. Having communion with one another through our bishops…and our pope is something else…and a great blessing. Unity is very fragile and it is always something we all have to work at.

It is pretty evident, according to Raquel Welch the movie star, the effect contraception has had on the morality of mankind. When I was growing up, the STD’s we see today did not exist as then. We live in an extremely materialistic and an extremely over-sexed culture…and Christianity is always counter cultural.

 

[Cavaradossi]

Sorry that you and bluegoat are offended. I’m teachable. I looked into Orthodoxy before I became a Catholic. Where is this unified Orthodox Church that is not Greek, not Russian, not Romanian, not Ukrainian, not Bulgarian, IOW not cultural, ethnic, or nationalistic, which speaks with one voice?

I couldn’t stomach (literally, it made me sick) the recent Eastern Orthodox capitulation to contraception. And I’m confounded by the two divorces, three marriages policy, which is contrary to the teaching of Genisis and of Christ in Mt 5:32.

I couldn’t figure out whether to be Oriental or Eastern Orthodox. You don’t recognize each other. Within Eastern Orthodoxy, there is conflict.

That’s my twocents: I expect that you will disagree.

Again, this is not intended to offend, but this is how I see it. .

The fact that you try to lump the Oriental and Eastern Orthodox into one group representative of “Orthodoxy” tells me that you did not look very far into Orthodoxy. The Oriental Orthodox come from a schism which resulted from the Council of Chalcedon in 451, when Rome and the Eastern Patriarchates were still in communion. The Eastern Orthodox and Rome split in the Great Schism. The two are completely separate bodies, with different expressions of Christology.

There is, however, one unified Orthodox Church (from the Eastern Orthodox perspective), and that is the Eastern Orthodox Church. You can join any Church within the Eastern Orthodox Church, whether Russian, Antiochian, Bulgarian, Greek, Cyprian, etc. and be within the Eastern Orthodox Church. The only difference you’ll get will be some differences in custom and a difference in jurisdiction (which bishop you are under). Eventually, the goal would be to set up one American Orthodox Church for all of the faithful anyway. How is that system different from the Eastern Catholic/Roman Catholic system within the Catholic Church anyhow? The difference between the Melkites and the Roman Catholics is certainly much greater than the differences between the Antiochians and the Russians.

 

[Rawb]

Sorry that you and bluegoat are offended. I’m teachable. I looked into Orthodoxy before I became a Catholic. Where is this unified Orthodox Church that is not Greek, not Russian, not Romanian, not Ukrainian, not Bulgarian, IOW not cultural, ethnic, or nationalistic, which speaks with one voice?

The Church you’re talking of is the Holy Catholic Apostolic Orthodox Church. Whether one is Greek, Russian, Antiochian, Serbian, Bulgarian, Japanese, American, or any of the other churches, one is Orthodox.

The problem you’re facing is that you’re determining unification through hierarchy, whereas unity truly is determined through unity of belief and doctrine. The Orthodox Church is One because we worship, believe, and teach the same faith.

Holy Orthodoxy is Greek, is Russian, is Romanian and Ukrainian and Bulgarian. She is Estonian, British, and Italian. The Church is Egyptian, Antiochian, and American, Japanese, Finish, and Polish, Albanian, and Georgian. She exists everywhere, adapting the culture to Christianity. That’s all a side-effect, because most of all The Church is Christian, holding the same faith of the apostles and teaching the same faith.

Personally I find more disagreement about doctrine in Roman Catholic Churches. If I go into a Roman, Coptic, and Greek Catholic Church I will get three (arguably different) teachings on Original Sin. Your bishops are all in communion with the pope, however.

I couldn’t stomach (literally, it made me sick) the recent Eastern Orthodox capitulation to contraception. And I’m confounded by the two divorces, three marriages policy, which is contrary to the teaching of Genisis and of Christ in Mt 5:32.

Actually, these were some of the reasons I left the Roman Catholic Church - Catholicism isn’t strict enough about these issues. Whereas Orthodoxy will, reluctantly and with a penitential service, permit a second and third marriage but no more, there are no limits on the number of “annulments” a Roman can get, and the preaching on contraception is basically non-existent in y’all’s parishes.

I couldn’t figure out whether to be Oriental or Eastern Orthodox. You don’t recognize each other. Within Eastern Orthodoxy, there is conflict.

That conflict is still your conflict: The Orientals split from you just as much as they split from us: we were one church when that split happened.

 

[KathleenGee]

Well, there is definitely a conflict within Orthodoxy with the western Catholic church.

I met a woman recently whose parents were Catholic and Orthodox. She said it is pride, power, politics…

Like to me, the division reflects the externals but not the internal source…Jesus Christ.

She said the Orthodox live their faith from the center of their heart, more emtional…and thus come across a certain way. The Latin Church is intellectual…and I would say because of the celibate clergy, we go into more depth on Marian dogmas…the Filoque to me is more reflective of region and charism than truth…I think both Catholic and Orthodox are correct.

Both sides are stubborn.

And you need Peter as head of the apostles the way Christ set up the Church.

 

[AntalKalnoky]

When did I say anything contrary to what you said? I just said that the Church is not a democracy?

I misread, and mistyped! Sorry.

 

[AntalKalnoky]

Well, there is definitely a conflict within Orthodoxy with the western Catholic church.

I met a woman recently whose parents were Catholic and Orthodox. She said it is pride, power, politics…

Like to me, the division reflects the externals but not the internal source…Jesus Christ.

She said the Orthodox live their faith from the center of their heart, more emtional…and thus come across a certain way. The Latin Church is intellectual…and I would say because of the celibate clergy, we go into more depth on Marian dogmas…the Filoque to me is more reflective of region and charism than truth…I think both Catholic and Orthodox are correct.

Both sides are stubborn.

And you need Peter as head of the apostles the way Christ set up the Church.

We’re not stubborn anymore, although Orthodox Metroplitans may be, requesting being consulted By the Pope First, (the Last Ravenna Conference on Union) as a condition of Soon Full Communion with the Vatican, as 22 Eastern Churches are. The Vatican is the opposite of stubborn, for 50 years. The Latin Church is 7 days a week: Mass, Adoration, etc., etc practise; Our Orthodox brothers are quietly a tiny bit jealous. (Shhhh, don’t tell anybody)

We are each The 1.3 Billion member (of 2 Billion Christian) Church Our Lord Founded, with the same Sacraments, historicity Unique to His Church. As John Paul II the Great said, East and West are the 2 lungs of The Church of Christ on Earth

 

[CopticChristian]

Why the focus on ‘one leader’ I would assume it’s really about the Churches being united in pupose

An organization can have a single leader but not have unity of purpose, it can be falling apart at the seams.

Conversley, families often have two leaders that are completely united in purpose. The members (family) see the parents united as one, without conflict.

Can the Mormon church have more than one Hinckley, only one president or more perhaps?

 

[CopticChristian]

Hi,

This question is geared more towards Eastern Orthodox, but Prostestants/non-denominational/non-Catholic can chip in as well.

Can an organization be one with several leaders?

Let me explain:

The Nicene Creed states that “* in One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church?” I’d like to focus on the adjective “one*” in that sentence.

Now, Catholics say that, while Christ is the Head of the Church, the Pope is the Vicar (representative) of Christ and therefore the temporal leader of the Church. There can only be one pope at any time. Many can claim the papacy (think the Great Schism in during the High Middle Ages), but only one of the papal claimants is the legitimate pontiff. Furthermore, the pope is the leader of the body of bishops, and therefore the leader of the bishopric within the Church. There is only one leader.

Now, Eastern Orthodox, as I understand it, claim that all bishops are equal in power and status, with the Patriarch (Bishop) of Constantinople being the first among equals (with only a primacy of honor - nothing more). So you could say that the Eastern Orthodox have several dozen leaders, since no one bishop claims primacy.

Now, with that in mind, let me re-ask that question: can an organization (in this case, the Church) be “one” (as stated in the Nicene Creed) with multiple leaders (bishops)? Can it be unified with, more or less, a confederation of Sees?

I’d like to hear what people think!

Thank you!

Scott

With 22 Catholic Churches and the situation in the East this is a difficult question to answer in the trenches. Although Constantinople has primacy, the Eastern Orthodox admits that Rome has primacy over Constantinople.

In consideration that there may be unity there may be some sort of arrangement as to Eastern and Western Papacy with Rome having primacy in consultation East and West. In consideration that Rome, the Pope rarely exercises the excathedra status as Pope it is possible to have one visible leader that agrees to lead in concert.

The guys at the top will formulate this. They are masters of Semantics, agreement, and consideration. They are some brilliant minds led by the spirit that give me some encouragement. Our minds can be illuminated and in this question I am not sure I am illumined.

 

[AntalKalnoky]

Can the Mormon church have more than one Hinckley, only one president or more perhaps?

(They’ve got only one Mormon Tabernacle Choir)

 

[AntalKalnoky]

Can the Mormon church have more than one Hinckley, only one president or more perhaps?

(They’ve got only one Mormon Tabernacle Choir)

 

[Izdaari]

Can the Mormon church have more than one Hinckley, only one president or more perhaps?

Whether they have a president depends on how well Romney does in the primaries, and then in the general election.

 

[AntalKalnoky]

Roman Church annulments are not easy by any means; and yes, The Roman Church does Properly grant Annulments based on the Facts of each Marriage. I know more than one granted Annulment of a prior non-marriage. Catholic Annulments are not remotelly “all”, they are proper. Never disparage them. We have opinions; they have the Facts: determined
Orthodox and Roman Leaders are masters of Theology and Traditions of Our Lord; Not Semantics as has been suggested. We are the 2 Lungs of One Church, soon the Orthodox community also. :byzsoc::signofcross:

 

[CopticChristian]

Roman Church annulments are not easy by any means; and yes, The Roman Church does Properly grant Annulments based on the Facts of each Marriage. I know more than one granted Annulment of a prior non-marriage. Catholic Annulments are not remotelly “all”, they are proper. Never disparage them. We have opinions; they have the Facts: determined

                                                                                                                     Orthodox  and Roman  Leaders  are  masters  of  Theology  and   Traditions  of Our  Lord;  Not  Semantics    as  has  been  suggested.  We    are the  2  Lungs  of One  Church,  soon  the  Orthodox  community   also. :byzsoc::signofcross:

I do not agree. General Semantics is what I am referring to. This is not a bad thing. The basic tennet is this “the map is not the territory”. In consideratin what you are saying in order to agree and commune via Theology and Traditions the maps have to coincide. In this regard by explaining and understanding and stating in ways that are agreeable, the maps are changed to conform to unity. This map is formed by words.

I am not talking about just changing words. The notion of Separated Brethren is not just words but implies a change of the map as to how we see Protestants of today as compared to Zwingli, Knox, etc.

Repent for the Kingdom is at hand or Change your mind for the Kingdom is at hand. Paul changed his map, he saw what he knew in a different light, the same information understood differently. Paul himself in Romans says a renewing of the Mind.

The mind has to change to accept change.

 

[Rawb]

                                                                                     The  Latin Church is  7  days  a  week:  Mass,  Adoration,  etc.,  etc  practise;  Our  Orthodox  brothers       are  quietly  a   tiny  bit  jealous.    (Shhhh,  don't  tell  anybody)

I can assure you, no Orthodox person I have ever spoken to is at all jealous of your Novus Ordo, or the fact that you have activity 7 Days a week. Heck, we have Vespers, Matins, other Hours Prayers from the Horologion, Liturgy, and during feast days we still do the old blessings of fruit, of the waters, and the processions. I can’t think of anything I’m jealous of Romans having.

We are each The 1.3 Billion member (of 2 Billion Christian) Church Our Lord Founded, with the same Sacraments, historicity Unique to His Church. As John Paul II the Great said, East and West are the 2 lungs of The Church of Christ on Earth

Your pope was referring to your Eastern Catholics as your other lung - not the Orthodox Church. We are not part of the same church.

 

[Cavaradossi]

I can assure you, no Orthodox person I have ever spoken to is at all jealous of your Novus Ordo, or the fact that you have activity 7 Days a week. Heck, we have Vespers, Matins, other Hours Prayers from the Horologion, Liturgy, and during feast days we still do the old blessings of fruit, of the waters, and the processions. I can’t think of anything I’m jealous of Romans having.

Agreed; with the rich litugical life of the Orthodox Church, what would I have to be jealous of in the Catholic Church? There seems to be some strange misconception on this forum that the Orthodox are always thinking about the Roman Catholic Church, as if somehow opposing the RCC and being hateful and jealous is the center of our religious life. I assure you that this is not the case. The RCC is merely a peripheral thought for most believers, if it is even a thought for them at all.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Actually, these were some of the reasons I left the Roman Catholic Church - Catholicism isn’t strict enough about these issues. Whereas Orthodoxy will, reluctantly and with a penitential service, permit a second and third marriage but no more, there are no limits on the number of “annulments” a Roman can get, and the preaching on contraception is basically non-existent in y’all’s parishes.

Do you actually know someone who has had an annulment more than once?

 

[ConstantineTG]

I can assure you, no Orthodox person I have ever spoken to is at all jealous of your Novus Ordo, or the fact that you have activity 7 Days a week. Heck, we have Vespers, Matins, other Hours Prayers from the Horologion, Liturgy, and during feast days we still do the old blessings of fruit, of the waters, and the processions. I can’t think of anything I’m jealous of Romans having.

Roman Catholicism is actually equally rich with a lot of tradition both Liturgical and extraliturgical. What I find is that here in North America, it tends to be bland. You should experience Roman Catholicism in the Philippines.

Your pope was referring to your Eastern Catholics as your other lung - not the Orthodox Church. We are not part of the same church.

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_02051995_orientale-lumen_en.html

Our Eastern Catholic brothers and sisters are very conscious of being the living bearers of this tradition, together with our Orthodox brothers and sisters. The members of the Catholic Church of the Latin tradition must also be fully acquainted with this treasure and thus feel, with the Pope, a passionate longing that the full manifestation of the Church’s catholicity be restored to the Church and to the world, expressed not by a single tradition, and still less by one community in opposition to the other; and that we too may be granted a full taste of the divinely revealed and undivided heritage of the universal Church(2) which is preserved and grows in the life of the Churches of the East as in those of the West.

1. I believe that one important way to grow in mutual understanding and unity consists precisely in improving our knowledge of one another. The children of the Catholic Church already know the ways indicated by the Holy See for achieving this: to know the liturgy of the Eastern Churches;(62) to deepen their knowledge of the spiritual traditions of the Fathers and Doctors of the Christian East,(63) to follow the example of the Eastern Churches for the inculturation of the Gospel message; to combat tensions between Latins and Orientals and to encourage dialogue between Catholics and the Orthodox; to train in specialized institutions theologians, liturgists, historians and canonists for the Christian East, who in turn can spread knowledge of the Eastern Churches; to offer appropriate teaching on these subjects in seminaries and theological faculties, especially to future priests.(64) These remain very sound recommendations on which I intend to insist with particular force.

I’m pretty sure he was talking about you guys