Can an Orthodox Pray Somebody out of Hell?

[Ghosty]

Are you saying that there are Latin theologians who equated purgatory with hell?

Did you read my citation of the Catechism of Trent, the official Catechism of the Roman Church up until the promulgation of the CCC? Purgatory is specifically called “Hell” in that document.

The difference lies in the fact that Hell is most specially the place for the Damned, because it is their proper and permanent place; it doesn’t mean that Hell doesn’t refer to other after-life states as well.

Peace and God bless!

 

[Ghosty]

The “restoration” refers to apokatastasis, which for Origen is the eventual “restoration” of all intelligent creatures to God. It is called a “restoration” because for Origen, human persons pre-existed in the realm of closeness to God, and humans will eventually (even after eons in hells) enter into God’s realm.

Thus, this anathema only addresses the belief that (1) there was an original status of closeness to God, a pre-existence before birth; and that (2) eventually, even after eons, all intelligent beings will be restored to their original state. This was Origen’s view of universalism.

This is not the understanding of the Catholic and Orthodox Churches regarding these anathemas. Since it was a Catholic/Orthodox Council that made the anathemas, I would say we should be relying on their understanding, which is that Hell (of the Damned) is indeed eternal, and that people can’t be “prayed out” of their eternal punishment.

Peace and God bless!

 

[Ghosty]

It may be like this. orthodox needing help in after life may get it even after death because they followed miracles.
Catholics may say, it seemed logic to get the new ideas and not to pray for departed. God can we get back and become Orthodox before coming again?
There are people speaking with God and they didn’t came to say what Catholics say.

What you’re trying to say isn’t very clear. Catholics indeed pray for the departed all the time.

Peace and God bless!

 

[Siddhartha]

This is not the understanding of the Catholic and Orthodox Churches regarding these anathemas. Since it was a Catholic/Orthodox Council that made the anathemas, I would say we should be relying on their understanding, which is that Hell (of the Damned) is indeed eternal, and that people can’t be “prayed out” of their eternal punishment.

Peace and God bless!

Catholics and Orthodox differ, of course, on when this “eternal punishment” actually starts.

For Catholics, the eternal punishment starts at death.

For Orthodox, one’s eternal fate does not start at death; it starts at the Last Judgment. Until the Last Judgment, one is in Hades, and one’s change in fate is possible:

Is it possible at all that the fate of a person can be changed after his death? Is death that border beyond which some unchangeable static existence comes? Does the development of the human person not stop after death?

On the one hand, it is impossible for one to actively repent in hell; it is impossible to rectify the evil deeds one committed by appropriate good works. However, it may be possible for one to repent through a ‘change of heart’, a review of one’s values. One of the testimonies to this is the rich man of the Gospel we have already mentioned. He realized the gravity of his situation as soon as found himself in hell. Indeed, if in his lifetime he was focused on earthly pursuits and forgot God, once in hell he realized that his only hope for salvation was God[76] . Besides, according to the teaching of the Orthodox Church, the fate of a person after death can be changed through the prayer of the Church. Thus, existence after death has its own dynamics. On the basis of what has been said above, we may say that after death the development of the human person does not cease, for existence after death is not a transfer from a dynamic into a static being, but rather continuation on a new level of that road which a person followed in his lifetime.

 

[AdrianP]

Ok I was wrong then. If you pray for departed I think it is OK regarding this aspect.

 

[Nyarlathotep]

Catholics and Orthodox differ, of course, on when this “eternal punishment” actually starts.

For Catholics, the eternal punishment starts at death.

For Orthodox, one’s eternal fate does not start at death; it starts at the Last Judgment. Until the Last Judgment, one is in Hades, and one’s change in fate is possible:

Good link; made me think of the Easter prayer:

“Χριστός ανέστη εκ νεκρών,
θανάτω θάνατον πατήσας,
καί τοίς εν τοίς μνήμασι
ζωήν χαρισάμενος!”

"Хрїстосъ воскресе изъ мертвыхъ,
Смертїю смерть поправъ,
И сѹщымъ во гробѣхъ
животъ даровавъ! "

“Hristos a înviat din morţi,
Cu moartea pre moarte călcând,
Şi celor din morminte
Viaţă dăruindu-le!”

“Christ is Risen from the dead!
By Death he conquored Death;
and to those in the grave
He Granted Life.”

It still seems to me that both theories can lead to what my admittedly “finite” human mind percieves to be injustice. Take this thought experiment:

Catholic version: Anglican commits a mortal sin (lusts after incredibly gorgeous woman crossing the street, begins to walk over to her with plans to solicit adultery), gets hit by bus (because of said aforementioned incredibly gorgeous woman), dies, goes to Hell for all eternity. Seems unjust, no?

Orthodox version: Orthodox commits very same mortal sin, but his entire family commissions a monastery of nuns and an Archbishop to pray for him, so he goes to Heaven, while the aforementioned Anglican, with nobody praying for him because they don’t believe in doing that, stays in Hell. Also seems unjust, no?

Do we throw up our hands and say: “Well, it’s a mystery”, or is there a satisfactory theological explanation?

 

[youngsaint]

My grandfather asked me once, “Son, do you believe the priest can pray you out of hell?”

I said, “Dilly, there are a lot of people who believe that the priest prays people out of hell, and every single one of them is a Protestant.”

Regarding what Polaris said, look up and read THE RIVER OF FIRE by Dr. Alexandre Kalimiros. It’s available on the 'net.

LOL! Thats a good line! But according to the Catholic Church, hell IS a one way ticket, I don’t know about the orthodox, sorry.

 

[Ghosty]

Catholics and Orthodox differ, of course, on when this “eternal punishment” actually starts.

For Catholics, the eternal punishment starts at death.

For Orthodox, one’s eternal fate does not start at death; it starts at the Last Judgment. Until the Last Judgment, one is in Hades, and one’s change in fate is possible:

You’re apparently reading a lot into the lecture that simply isn’t there. The lecture is about Christ’s descent into Hell after His Crucifixion, and the possible salvation after death of those who did not know Him in life. Everything the Bishop says fits the Latin conception of Purgatory, especially the last portion of the text you quoted:

On the basis of what has been said above, we may say that after death the development of the human person does not cease, for existence after death is not a transfer from a dynamic into a static being, but rather continuation on a new level of that road which a person followed in his lifetime.

He is not speaking of a change in Eternal destination at all, but rather that there is a dynamic continuation of the path the soul was already on in life. This, incidentally, is also the Latin view not only of Purgatory, but also of the Last Judgement where humans will be elevated to new Glory with their bodies, or plunged into new depths of punishment with them.

I would also point out that while you keep referring to “Catholic theology”, you are actually referring to Latin theology; the various Eastern Catholic traditions have their own, and my own Church’s is the same as that of the Eastern Orthodox.

Peace and God bless!

 

[Mickey]

Did you read my citation of the Catechism of Trent, the official Catechism of the Roman Church up until the promulgation of the CCC? Purgatory is specifically called “Hell” in that document.

I did not know that. Very interesting.

 

[Mickey]

I would also point out that while you keep referring to “Catholic theology”, you are actually referring to Latin theology; the various Eastern Catholic traditions have their own, and my own Church’s is the same as that of the Eastern Orthodox.

Is it possible that East and West in the Catholic Communion are permitted to have different understandings of an “infallible” doctrine such as purgatory?

 

[Mickey]

Did you read my citation of the Catechism of Trent, the official Catechism of the Roman Church up until the promulgation of the CCC? Purgatory is specifically called “Hell” in that document.

I’m not seeing where Trent refers to purgatory as hell?

 

[Siddhartha]

…
It still seems to me that both theories can lead to what my admittedly “finite” human mind percieves to be injustice. Take this thought experiment:

Catholic version: Anglican commits a mortal sin (lusts after incredibly gorgeous woman crossing the street, begins to walk over to her with plans to solicit adultery), gets hit by bus (because of said aforementioned incredibly gorgeous woman), dies, goes to Hell for all eternity. Seems unjust, no?

Orthodox version: Orthodox commits very same mortal sin, but his entire family commissions a monastery of nuns and an Archbishop to pray for him, so he goes to Heaven, while the aforementioned Anglican, with nobody praying for him because they don’t believe in doing that, stays in Hell. Also seems unjust, no?

Do we throw up our hands and say: “Well, it’s a mystery”, or is there a satisfactory theological explanation?

Just to take the Orthodox scenario (I’ll leave the Latin-Catholic scenario for others to handle), we can say that the Last Judgment has not yet happened, thus, we can all pray for those in Hades who have no one to pray for them. As more and more humans become Christian, there’s more of a chance that someone in Hades does in fact have relatives (however distant) who would then pray for him/her. In fact, maybe the Last Judgment won’t happen, until everyone in Hades has someone to pray for him/her?

 

[Siddhartha]

You’re apparently reading a lot into the lecture that simply isn’t there. The lecture is about Christ’s descent into Hell after His Crucifixion, and the possible salvation after death of those who did not know Him in life. Everything the Bishop says fits the Latin conception of Purgatory, especially the last portion of the text you quoted:

On the basis of what has been said above, we may say that after death the development of the human person does not cease, for existence after death is not a transfer from a dynamic into a static being, but rather continuation on a new level of that road

I think you’re reading too much into the Bishop’s mention of the road someone takes in this life. He’s not saying that the road someone takes in this life, predetermines the road someone takes in Hades; one’s repentance after death might actually place you on a “new level” on the one road that is your life:

However, it may be possible for one to repent through a ‘change of heart’, a review of one’s values. One of the testimonies to this is the rich man of the Gospel we have already mentioned. He realized the gravity of his situation as soon as found himself in hell. Indeed, if in his lifetime he was focused on earthly pursuits and forgot God, once in hell he realized that his only hope for salvation was God.

 

[Ghosty]

I think you’re reading too much into the Bishop’s mention of the road someone takes in this life. He’s not saying that the road someone takes in this life, predetermines the road someone takes in Hades; one’s repentance after death might actually place you on a “new level” on the one road that is your life:

Perhaps you are correct, and the Bishop believes that such major changes can occur after death. His word can’t be taken at the expense of the Fifth Ecumenical Council, however; Bishops, and even great Saints, have erred and erred greatly on this very point.

Peace and God bless!

 

[Ghosty]

I’m not seeing where Trent refers to purgatory as hell?

See post #4. It’s the Catechism of Trent, the “original CCC”, not the Council of Trent.

Peace and God bless!

 

[Mickey]

See post #4. It’s the Catechism of Trent, the “original CCC”, not the Council of Trent.

Peace and God bless!

Yes. I read it. I do not see where they are equating purgatory with hell.

 

[Ghosty]

Yes. I read it. I do not see where they are equating purgatory with hell.

Hell of the Damned and the Hell of Purgatory are distinguished, but they are both Hell. It says so right in the quote.

Peace and God bless!

 

[theistgal]

Catholic version: Anglican commits a mortal sin (lusts after incredibly gorgeous woman crossing the street, begins to walk over to her with plans to solicit adultery), gets hit by bus (because of said aforementioned incredibly gorgeous woman), dies, goes to Hell for all eternity. Seems unjust, no?

Orthodox version: Orthodox commits very same mortal sin, but his entire family commissions a monastery of nuns and an Archbishop to pray for him, so he goes to Heaven, while the aforementioned Anglican, with nobody praying for him because they don’t believe in doing that, stays in Hell. Also seems unjust, no?

Do we throw up our hands and say: “Well, it’s a mystery”, or is there a satisfactory theological explanation?

Yes! The Orthodox guy has to carry the Anglican guy with him the whole way or he doesn’t get anywhere.

 

[Mickey]

Hell of the Damned and the Hell of Purgatory are distinguished, but they are both Hell. It says so right in the quote.

There is no reference to “the hell of purgatory”. I only see a reference to “the fires of purgatory”.

Are we reading the same thing???

 

[Ghosty]

There is no reference to “the hell of purgatory”. I only see a reference to “the fires of purgatory”.

Are we reading the same thing???

Look at the heading. The whole point is that Purgatory is also termed Hell, but is not the “Hell of the Damned”. You can also read the works of St. Thomas Aquinas, where the fires of Purgatory are described as being the very same fires as those of Hell.

Peace and God bless!