Can an Orthodox Pray Somebody out of Hell?

[Mickey]

Look at the heading. The whole point is that Purgatory is also termed Hell, but is not the “Hell of the Damned”. You can also read the works of St. Thomas Aquinas, where the fires of Purgatory are described as being the very same fires as those of Hell.

Okay. So we know where the flame metaphors came from. I have two questions.

1. Do you know why the Latin Church seems to distance herself from the flame analogy today?
2. Do you agree with the “different abodes called hell” explanation?

 

[Ghosty]

1. Do you know why the Latin Church seems to distance herself from the flame analogy today?

Because it is merely an analogy, and not any kind of exact exposition of the nature of Purgatory. As with any analogy, its effectiveness varies with the times and cultures it is used in. For whatever reason, it’s not considered especially useful as it once was.

The change certainly doensn’t indicate a shift in doctrine, merely one of exposition.

1. Do you agree with the “different abodes called hell” explanation?

Since Hell is simply the Germanic word for Hades (abode of the dead), I see no reason to disagree with it. Hell has become a more refined term over the centuries, and has come to relate exclusively to the “place of the Damned”, but that doesn’t mean we should look back at previous documents with the modern use of the term in mind. Purgatory was once called Hell/Hades, and all of the dogmatic definitions on Purgatoy come from the time when the word Hell was used much more broadly than it is today.

So if in the East we say we pray for those in Hades/Hell, and in the West they say we only pray for those in Purgatory, there is no actual difference, since both agree that the Damned can not, and will not, be saved. The only difference is that Hell/Hades has taken a narrower definition over time in the West.

Peace and God bless!

 

[chrisb]

The “flames of Purgatory” were considered to be the flames of Hell by those theologians, such as St. Thomas Aquinas, who used the term.

Peace and God bless!

The flames were the same but the purpose was different…

 

[Ghosty]

The flames were the same but the purpose was different…

Indeed, and that’s the line that was drawn and eventually “hardened” into what we have today.

Peace and God bless!

 

[Bill_Pick]

I can not talk that much about the Orthodox but I have never,never heard of any one praying some one out of hell. Now the JW do not believe in hell at all and may be the monon .dont know about them .but then they are both cults

 

[Mickey]

The change certainly doensn’t indicate a shift in doctrine, merely one of exposition.

I think that there is a very good argument for the case that there has been a shift in the doctrine. The teaching has changed, and hence the doctrine is understood differently now by the Latins.

 

[Mickey]

I came across a little pamphlet titled, “Holy Communion Prayers”. It is from the St Josephat’s Missionary Society. It states that the contents of the pamphlet contain a selection of devotional prayers compiled from approved sources.

Here is one of the prayers: (emphasis mine)

Pray For The Souls In Purgatory

O gentle Heart of Jesus, ever present in the Blessed Sacrament, ever consumed with burning love for the poor captive souls in Purgatory, have pity on them. Be not severe in Your Judgements, but let some drops of Your Precious Blood fall upon the devouring flames.

Now we see here that purgatory is being described as a place where the poor souls are captive and in need of pity. It is also a judgement of sorts–consisting of devouring flames.

There definitely seems to be a change in the doctrine over time.

 

[Ghosty]

I think that there is a very good argument for the case that there has been a shift in the doctrine. The teaching has changed, and hence the doctrine is understood differently now by the Latins.

There’s been no change at all, and I can’t fathom the basis for your claim. On what grounds do you say there’s been a change?

Peace and God bless!

 

[mardukm]

The Oriental Orthodox do not pray people out of “Hell” - that is, “Hell” defined as eternal separation from God. Oriental Orthodox believe all souls go to Hades (not “Hell”) after death, where the souls get a foretaste of their eternal reward (i.e., Heaven or Hell). Unfortunately, “Hell” and “Hades” are sometimes used interchangeably among the Orthodox (Eastern and Oriental), so the Westerns might get a perception that Orthodox pray people out of Hell. In fact, the Coptic Orthodox hierarchy recently revised the Liturgy to reflect this. In order to avoid scandal over the two terms (i.e., “Hades” and “Hell”), the Coptic Orthodox no longer profess to pray for those in Hell.

Of course, I’ve encountered Eastern Orthodox who claim that people can be prayed out of Hell, and that universalism is still a valid theologoumenon.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[mardukm]

There definitely seems to be a change in the doctrine over time.

Don’t confuse theologoumenon with dogma.

The Latin Church has never dogmatized the belief in purgatorial fire. There are Latins who claim it’s a dogma of Catholicism, but they would be as peculiar as those EO theologians who claim the doctrine of toll houses is a dogma of EO’xy.

Blessings

 

[Mickey]

On what grounds do you say there’s been a change?

The fact that the teaching by the clergy and faithful seems to have completely changed over time.

 

[Mickey]

Don’t confuse theologoumenon with dogma.

The Latin Church has never dogmatized the belief in purgatorial fire. There are Latins who claim it’s a dogma of Catholicism, but they would be as peculiar as those EO theologians who claim the doctrine of toll houses is a dogma of EO’xy.

Ah yes—the classic “theologoumenon” cop out followed by the ever popular toll house diversion.

 

[Ghosty]

The fact that the teaching by the clergy and faithful seems to have completely changed over time.

Thats not an answer, Mickey, since there is no obvious change beyond superficial term usage. What exactly are you seeing that seems to be a change?

Peace and God bless!

 

[PJM]

=Nyarlathotep;5701463]I’m pretty clear about the Catholic position – we pray for the souls in Purgatory, but for those in Hell, it’s a one-way ticket.

But Purgatory is only a matter of faith for some Orthodox, even though all Orthodox pray for the dead.

So, for those Orthodox who do not believe in Purgatory but still pray for the dead, is it possible to “pray somebody out of Hell”, so to speak, and if so, how?

N.B: Not trying to start a debate; I’m neither theologian nor proselytizer (in fact, that’s probably misspelled), and I know how heated the tempers get between the icon crowd and the statue crowd.

Hospodi pomilui!

Friend, I know for sure that God can’t so my guess is that they can’t either:thumbsup:

Why is that you ask?

Well, because God dosen’t sent anyone to either hell or heaven. That friend is somthing God insist that we do by ourselves.

2 Tim.4: “14 Alexander the coppersmith did me great harm; the Lord will requite him for his deeds.”

2 Peter 2: 9 “then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trial, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment, 10 and especially those who indulge in the lust of defiling passion and despise authority.”

Jude 14: " It was of these also that Enoch in the seventh generation from Adam prophesied, saying, “Behold, the Lord came with his holy myriads, to execute judgment on all, and to convict all the ungodly of all their deeds of ungodliness which they have committed in such an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against him." These are grumblers, malcontents, following their own passions, loud-mouthed boasters, flattering people to gain advantage.”

1 Peter 1: 16"since it is written, “You shall be holy, for I am holy.” And if you invoke as Father him who judges each one impartially according to his deeds, conduct yourselves with fear throughout the time of your exile."

Do bad, get bad, do good, get good. Fair, Just and God’s Divine plan

 

[Mickey]

Thats not an answer, Mickey, since there is no obvious change beyond superficial term usage. What exactly are you seeing that seems to be a change?

It surely is a change my friend. You do not need to stay in denial. You know it–and I know.

Generations were taught one thing about purgatory by the bishops, priests, and nuns for many years. And then suddenly, the teaching has been amended. You call it “superficial”—I call it a substantial teaching adjustment.

I experienced it personally!

But then, this thread is not about the “doctrine” of purgatory and how it has changed over the years.

I suppose you could start yet another thread about it.

 

[Nyarlathotep]

It surely is a change my friend. You do not need to stay in denial. You know it–and I know.

Generations were taught one thing about purgatory by the bishops, priests, and nuns for many years. And then suddenly, the teaching has been amended. You call it “superficial”—I call it a substantial teaching adjustment.

I experienced it personally!

But then, this thread is not about the “doctrine” of purgatory and how it has changed over the years.

I suppose you could start yet another thread about it.

Hell / Purgatory // Potäto / Potâto

Honestly, aren’t we engaging in a bit of tetrapyloctomy here? I pray for the dead. you pray for the dead; let’s call the whole thing off!

 

[Eucharisted]

Purgatory is a place of purification, and, because the souls therein do not see God and are being tormented by the temporal flames, purgatory could be called a prison or dungeon. However, just as Christians who suffered imprisonment for Christ rejoiced in their sufferings, while at the same time hoping in Christ for freedom, the souls in Purgatory rejoice in their sufferings, while at the same time hoping in Christ for freedom. And just as Christians can relieve the sufferings of others by prayer and pay a prisoner out of jail, so too can Christians relieve the holy souls by prayer and obtain indulgences for them to lessen their stay in Purgatory. Purgatory is a gift of God’s Mercy, on one hand, because it saves souls who die in venial sin, and, on the other hand, it is a gift of God’s Justice, because the soul justly suffers for his sins.

Roots of Purgatory: catholic.com/library/Roots_of_Purgatory.asp

 

[Mickey]

And just as Christians can relieve the sufferings of others by prayer and pay a prisoner out of jail, so too can Christians relieve the holy souls by prayer and obtain indulgences for them to lessen their stay in Purgatory.

Ah yes, indulgences. There is a lively topic.

 

[Ghosty]

It surely is a change my friend. You do not need to stay in denial. You know it–and I know.

Generations were taught one thing about purgatory by the bishops, priests, and nuns for many years. And then suddenly, the teaching has been amended. You call it “superficial”—I call it a substantial teaching adjustment.

I experienced it personally!

But then, this thread is not about the “doctrine” of purgatory and how it has changed over the years.

I suppose you could start yet another thread about it.

Show us in what way the teaching has changed. If you don’t have anything to point to, then drop it. I’m not in denial at all; I honestly have no idea what you’re talking about. The teaching today is exactly the same as found at the Council of Trent.

Peace and God bless!

 

[Mickey]

Show us in what way the teaching has changed.

I have already done so. Today it is no longer taught that there are “poor captive souls” in purgatory who are judged severely and must be pitied as they sit in devouring flames. These are the type of things I was taught.

If you don’t have anything to point to, then drop it.

I do not respond well to strangers making demands of me.

I’m not in denial at all;

Okay. I believe you.

I honestly have no idea what you’re talking about.

Okay. Then my discourse with you is finished.

Peace and God bless!

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