Can an Orthodox Pray Somebody out of Hell?

[PJM]

=Mickey-I’m not seeing where Trent refers to purgatory as hell?

Hi Mickey, nor do I this is the only reference to Purgatory I was able to locate, and its from the Rwenty-fifth Secession,

"*DECREE CONCERNING PURGATORY.
Whereas the Catholic Church, instructed by the Holy Ghost, has, from the sacred writings and the ancient tradition of the Fathers, taught, in sacred councils, and very recently in this oecumenical Synod, that there is a Purgatory, and that the souls there detained are helped by the suffrages of the faithful, [Page 233] but principally by the acceptable sacrifice of the altar; the holy Synod enjoins on bishops that they diligently endeavour that the sound doctrine concerning Purgatory, transmitted by the holy Fathers and sacred councils, be believed, maintained, taught, and every where proclaimed by the faithful of Christ. But let the more difficult and subtle questions, and which tend not to edification, and from which for the most part there is no increase of piety, be excluded from popular discourses before the uneducated multitude. In like manner, such things as are uncertain, or which labour under an appearance of error, let them not allow to be made public and treated of. While those things which tend to a certain kind of curiosity or superstition, or which savour of filthy lucre, let them prohibit as scandals and stumbling-blocks of the faithful. But let the bishops take care, that the suffrages of the faithful who are living, to wit the sacrifices of masses, prayers, alms, and other works of piety, which have been wont to be performed by the faithful for the other faithful departed, be piously and devoutly performed, in accordance with the institutes of the church; and that whatsoever is due on their behalf, from the endowments of testators, or in other way, be discharged, not in a perfunctory manner, but diligently and accurately, by the priests and ministers of the church, and others who are bound to render this (service) *

Love and prayers,
Pat

 

[Ghosty]

I have already done so. Today it is no longer taught that there are “poor captive souls” in purgatory who are judged severely and must be pitied as they sit in devouring flames. These are the type of things I was taught.

This teaching hasn’t changed; you will still find it used in exactly the way you’ve described. If certain people don’t utilize that vision, in favor of some other, it is of no consequence to the actual teaching of Purgatory. The thing to note is that this perspective on Purgatory was never the Dogma of Purgatory (feel free to look up all dogmatic statements if you like; you’ll never find the definition as you’ve stated it here), regardless of what you may have been led to believe. The Dogma is and was that the dead benefit from the Offering of the Liturgy, and our prayers and alms on their behalf.

Peace and God bless!

 

[Mickey]

This teaching hasn’t changed; you will still find it used in exactly the way you’ve described .

Okay.

The thing to note is that this perspective on Purgatory was never the Dogma of Purgatory

But it was always taught as dogma. It has confused many generations. The doctrine is proclaimed but the dogma keeps changing.

 

[Nyarlathotep]

Okay.
But it was always taught as dogma. It has confused many generations. The doctrine is proclaimed but the dogma keeps changing.

III. The Final Purification, or Purgatory

1030 All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.604 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. the tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:605

As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.606

1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin."607 From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God.608 The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:

Let us help and commemorate them. If Job’s sons were purified by their father’s sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.609

604 Cf. Council of Florence (1439): DS 1304; Council of Trent (1563): DS 1820; (1547): 1580; see also Benedict XII, Benedictus Deus (1336): DS 1000.

605 Cf. ⇒ 1 Cor 3:15; ⇒ 1 Pet 1:7.

606 St. Gregory the Great, Dial. 4, 39: PL 77, 396; cf. ⇒ Mt 12:31.

607 ⇒ 2 Macc 12:46.

608 Cf. Council of Lyons II (1274): DS 856.

609 St. John Chrysostom, Hom. in 1 Cor. 41, 5: PG 61, 361; cf. ⇒ Job 1:5.

Here’s a good 1,000+ years-worth of theology right here. Doesn’t seem to have “changed” so radically that the C/tCC can’t make sense out of it, does it? Even throws in some stuff from your buddies, Greg the Great, and St. Johnny C. You wouldn’t argue with them, would you?

 

[Ghosty]

Okay.
But it was always taught as dogma. It has confused many generations. The doctrine is proclaimed but the dogma keeps changing.

I can’t add anything to what The Crawling Chaos () has cited from the Catechism. The modern teaching is identical to that of Florence and prior (and these are even cited).

So I still fail to see what “change” you’re talking about. Perhaps I’m speaking to an “audient void”?

Peace and God bless!

P.S. the last sentence was an in-joke about Nyarlathotep, not an attack on you Mickey.

 

[Mickey]

Even throws in some stuff from your buddies, Greg the Great, and St. Johnny C.

My buddies? Greg? Johnny C.?

 

[Mickey]

So I still fail to see what “change” you’re talking about.

That’s okay. I tried to explain it the best I could.

P.S. the last sentence was an in-joke about Nyarlathotep, not an attack on you Mickey.

I know. I have been writing, recording, and performing music for almost 30 years.

Blessings

 

[Nyarlathotep]

I can’t add anything to what The Crawling Chaos () has cited from the Catechism. The modern teaching is identical to that of Florence and prior (and these are even cited).

So I still fail to see what “change” you’re talking about. Perhaps I’m speaking to an “audient void”?

Your sense of humo(u)r is truly cyclopean.

 

[Mickey]

Your sense of humo(u)r is truly cyclopean.

Yes. But I wonder if he dreams like Cthulhu?

 

[Ghosty]

That’s okay. I tried to explain it the best I could.

Well, I guess that’s that then.

I know. I have been writing, recording, and performing music for almost 30 years.

I didn’t know there was a musical connection. :harp:
I’m just an avid fan of the writing of H.P. Lovecraft; I have almost all of his work, including a copy of “Shadow Out of Time”, edited and personally autographed by S.T. Joshi.

So where’s my Cthulu smiley, darn it!?

 

[Mickey]

I didn’t know there was a musical connection.

Perhaps I’m mistaken, but I think " Nyarlathotep" is also the name of the poster’s band—taken from the writings of H.P Lovecraft.

 

[Ghosty]

Perhaps I’m mistaken, but I think " Nyarlathotep" is also the name of the poster’s band—taken from the writings of H.P Lovecraft.

Quite possible. It doesn’t surprise me at all that people would take things from the Lovecraft mythos as inspiration for music.

Peace and God bless!

 

[NoWings]

For fhtagn’s sake, gentlemen. Let’s back on topic.

p)

 

[Nyarlathotep]

For fhtagn’s sake, gentlemen. Let’s back on topic.

p)

Indeed. Quite enough gibbering for now.

On a related note, however, having read the Lovecraft corpus, I probably pray all the more fervently for the departed, as my vision of Hell / Purgatory is informed to no small degree by grotesque visions of squidiform demons, and the like. Seriously, which scares you more – cartoon-ish devils with horns and pitchforks, or That Which Cannot Be Named terrorizing mortals at The Mountains of Madness?

In short, if one man’s imagination can scare me, what manner of horrors await those suffering in death at the hands of Inifinite imagination? Talk about being scared straight!

Also, for HPL buffs, check out this satire of a Jack Chick tract: foo.ca/wp/chick-tract-satire/who-will-be-eaten-first/

 

[NoWings]

coughHellboycough