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mikebenson
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Assuming the couple were sleeping in different beds or even different rooms, I see nothing intrinsically sinful about this. Does the church have a stand on this issue?
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SonofMonica
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I am assuming by ‘couple’ you mean that the unmarried persons are romantically interested in one another. The Church, while recognizing that some have extreme financial hardships or other extenuating circumstances, does not encourage cohabitation. Even if you start off with good intentions, an overnight trip together does not sound like a good idea. Especially if you are a teenager… it is not too difficult to go down the hall to another room of a hotel and knock on the door to be let in. Let us avoid every occasion or appearance of sin. No need to put yourself in a compromising situation. Even the Apostle Paul was astounded that he could not always control what he did. He lamented that he did the very things he didn’t want to do! Sounds like us… That said, if you could provide some more particulars, it may be easier to craft a response to your individual situation. God bless.
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mikebenson
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I am really not speaking of cohabitation–I never said anything about living together permanently. I’m talking about taking a couple day trip together. I see nothing immoral about enjoying something like a vacation, without sex, with your girlfriend/future wife. I think it can strengthen the relationship before you ultimately get married.
BTW–I know there are a lot of puritanical extremists on this board who don’t condone steady dating. If you are one of those people, kindly keep your opinions to yourself…I know the party line and I don’t appreciate being preached at.
BTW–I know there are a lot of puritanical extremists on this board who don’t condone steady dating. If you are one of those people, kindly keep your opinions to yourself…I know the party line and I don’t appreciate being preached at.
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WordFuzion
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Ummm…just a question…but if people don’t have steady dating, then how do they know who they want to marry? I mean, I definetly want to date the same guy for awhile before I commit to marriage. Isn’t that how you keep from ending up in a divorce?
<3 Mare
PS - I’ve struggled with my faith alot, and I’m trying to keep hold of a sollid come back to the Church, so please don’t think I’m trying to be a wisearse or anything. I’m geninuely interested in these things.
<3 Mare
PS - I’ve struggled with my faith alot, and I’m trying to keep hold of a sollid come back to the Church, so please don’t think I’m trying to be a wisearse or anything. I’m geninuely interested in these things.
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SonofMonica
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I am confused. I was specifically talking about overnight trips, as I mentioned hotel rooms. I never said anything about permanently living together. Cohabitation does not imply any certain length of time. I am not preaching to you, sir. I was just providing some cautionary advice, and it consisted solely of a warning that even good intentions can lead to sin, if we are put in the right situation for it to breed. Just speaking out of experience. I never sought to condemn you. I’m not sure how puritan extremism factors in, as I’m a 27 year old male who likes sex, with my wife, naked. I went to college for a really long time. And I’m no preacher. You came here for advice and I was just trying to help.
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manualman
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The Church generally does not rule on prudential judgement matters, and this is a prudential judgement. so no, it isn’t wrong in and of itself.
From personal experience, I predict that if the relationship is established and a strong attraction exists, you’ll do something you’ll later regret.
Billy Graham has never had a hint of scandal. His advice: avoid the occasion of sin. Relying on your willpower once temptation holds you in its grasp is a fool’s plan. He’s never been in a private (non-viewable) place alone with a woman since he was married. That’s called planning ahead.
And lest you dismiss me, I dated my wife for two years before getting engaged.
From personal experience, I predict that if the relationship is established and a strong attraction exists, you’ll do something you’ll later regret.
Billy Graham has never had a hint of scandal. His advice: avoid the occasion of sin. Relying on your willpower once temptation holds you in its grasp is a fool’s plan. He’s never been in a private (non-viewable) place alone with a woman since he was married. That’s called planning ahead.
And lest you dismiss me, I dated my wife for two years before getting engaged.
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lil_flower_luv
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I don’t see anything wrong with this as long as your bedrooms (not just beds) are a good distance from eachother. (We* all *have temptation! 
) But to me, something like this is similar to going on an extended date—except for the eight hours or so you’re sleeping in separate rooms. 
) But to me, something like this is similar to going on an extended date—except for the eight hours or so you’re sleeping in separate rooms.
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turtle18
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As long as you are in separate bedrooms, what’s the problem?
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Seatuck
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I think it must be seriously evaluated and reflected on whether there is any chance of scandal. Will anyone hear of the trip and draw the obvious wrong conclusion? That’s what you have to look at. If there is no chance of scandal then I think it is ok provided the separate rooms. Not just separate beds. Separate quarters entirely.
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Br.Rich_SFO
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In general no there would be nothing sinful about taking the trip, it’s not cohabitation, which generally applies to a long term living arrangement. It would be best to stay in separate rooms.
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tjm190
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I’ve slept in the same bed with my girlfriend. And, contrary to the church’s condescension, we were not over come with temptation.
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SonofMonica
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That’s like saying “I’ve driven without a seatbelt before and I didn’t have an accident…” Do you see how anecdotal evidence is not really all that helpful when it comes to potential for sin? I, for one, have slept in the same bed with a woman without engaging in sexual behavior. On the other hand, I have slept in the same bed with a woman and engaged in sexual behavior. Now where are we?
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churchsecretary
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That’s great, tjm, but “avoiding the near occasions of sin” would be much easier if you slept in separate beds; even better, separate rooms!
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mikebenson
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It seems as though we are getting caught up in occasion of sin and scandal, so let me reframe the question–has sin been committed if a couple took an overnight trip, slept in separate beds, and had no sex? I would say that there was no sin. My beliefs differ from the Catholic party line when it comes to “scandal”–I believe you have to be responsible for yourself and police your own actions, but after that, you can’t live your life worrying about how it might appear to other people. Yes, we should set a good example, but in the end we are all going to be judged one-on-one and we cannot use other people’s actions to defend our own. If I am confident that what I am doing is not sinful, then my conscience is clear, no matter how it may appear to others.
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MercyMia
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mikebenson - It sounds from your last post like you had already have an answer to your own question, so why did you ask it? That said, I agree with your conclusion that no sin is committed on a trip where the couple sleeps in separate beds. Expanding on that, I agree with many of the posters here that it is probably not prudent to travel alone as a couple; a group setting (maybe a religious retreat!) is more advisable. I have to say, going on your honeymoon and spending a “vacation” romantically with someone for the first time is an awesome experience that I would never want to get a slice of before I was actually there.
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Seatuck
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Well we need to care about the other members of the Body of Christ and not provide scandal.From the CCC-
**II. RESPECT FOR THE DIGNITY OF PERSONS ** **Respect for the souls of others: scandal **
**2284 **Scandal is an attitude or behavior which leads another to do evil. The person who gives scandal becomes his neighbor’s tempter. He damages virtue and integrity; he may even draw his brother into spiritual death. Scandal is a grave offense if by deed or omission another is deliberately led into a grave offense.
**2285 **Scandal takes on a particular gravity by reason of the authority of those who cause it or the weakness of those who are scandalized. It prompted our Lord to utter this curse: "Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened round his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea."85 Scandal is grave when given by those who by nature or office are obliged to teach and educate others. Jesus reproaches the scribes and Pharisees on this account: he likens them to wolves in sheep’s clothing.86
**2286 **Scandal can be provoked by laws or institutions, by fashion or opinion.
Therefore, they are guilty of scandal who establish laws or social structures leading to the decline of morals and the corruption of religious practice, or to "social conditions that, intentionally or not, make Christian conduct and obedience to the Commandments difficult and practically impossible."87 This is also true of business leaders who make rules encouraging fraud, teachers who provoke their children to anger,88 or manipulators of public opinion who turn it away from moral values.
**2287 **Anyone who uses the power at his disposal in such a way that it leads others to do wrong becomes guilty of scandal and responsible for the evil that he has directly or indirectly encouraged. "Temptations to sin are sure to come; but woe to him by whom they come!"89
**II. RESPECT FOR THE DIGNITY OF PERSONS ** **Respect for the souls of others: scandal **
**2284 **Scandal is an attitude or behavior which leads another to do evil. The person who gives scandal becomes his neighbor’s tempter. He damages virtue and integrity; he may even draw his brother into spiritual death. Scandal is a grave offense if by deed or omission another is deliberately led into a grave offense.
**2285 **Scandal takes on a particular gravity by reason of the authority of those who cause it or the weakness of those who are scandalized. It prompted our Lord to utter this curse: "Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened round his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea."85 Scandal is grave when given by those who by nature or office are obliged to teach and educate others. Jesus reproaches the scribes and Pharisees on this account: he likens them to wolves in sheep’s clothing.86
**2286 **Scandal can be provoked by laws or institutions, by fashion or opinion.
Therefore, they are guilty of scandal who establish laws or social structures leading to the decline of morals and the corruption of religious practice, or to "social conditions that, intentionally or not, make Christian conduct and obedience to the Commandments difficult and practically impossible."87 This is also true of business leaders who make rules encouraging fraud, teachers who provoke their children to anger,88 or manipulators of public opinion who turn it away from moral values.
**2287 **Anyone who uses the power at his disposal in such a way that it leads others to do wrong becomes guilty of scandal and responsible for the evil that he has directly or indirectly encouraged. "Temptations to sin are sure to come; but woe to him by whom they come!"89
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mikebenson
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Seatuck - No disrespect intended to you or the catechism or anything, but the scandal argument just does not hold water, in my views anyway. Each of us, as Catholics and human beings, has a responsibility to police our actions and obey our morals. But after that, we cannot be responsible for the conclusions that people draw. In today’s oversexed world, some may believe every man and woman who are known to be romantically involved are having sex. Does this mean that no unmarried couple should be seen in public because it may lead some to believe they are having sex and cause scandal? A person’s private life is his or her own business, and we only have to worry about being clear with God, not about what everybody else may think. If we have to live our lives worrying about everybody else’s assumptions about us, then we may as well not even get out of bed in the morning because somewhere along the line there will be someone who assumes we may be sinning when we are not. It isn’t about what others think. God–and only God–knows the aboslute truth about everybody’s heart, mind, and soul.
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Seatuck
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I can’t agree with you. I do think we are responsible to protect at least the younger and innocent. Never said anything about appearing in public.You are talking about more than that. It may be in your case that there is absolutely no one to be scandalized. You have to evaluate it. It could be different for other peoples situations. For example here could be younger people(cousins, brothers and sisters) who might be given the wrong impression and then make a wrong decision based upon what seems to have happened. It’s different in every case. When we belong to something bigger that ourselves such as the Body of Christ we have responsibilities to others . You might need to adjust your thinking. It’s not just a you and God along kind of thing. We are not just a Me and God alone kind of Church.
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mikebenson
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Well, I am not going to get myself banned by arguing with you, but I do believe that some things in life are between a person and his Lord. I’ll take your argument and put the shoe on the other foot–when we are judged when we die, are we going to be able to say “Its his fault that I sinned because I thought he was sinning”? We are all going to be responsible for what we did, not what others thought. If I go up to my room and read the bible and somebody assumes that I am looking at porn, am I guilty of scandal because somebody assumed I was doing something I wasn’t?? If somebody sees me in a car driving with my girlfriend to church and assumes we are going to a motel, am I guilty of scandal? I really don’t understand the scandal argument. Other people’s assumptions do not equal your actions, and I believe God will judge us on the latter.
Seatuck – I am not trying to antagonize you or question your religious beliefs, its just that we seem to be coming from different ends of the spectrum…you seem to be more on the Puritan side of things, which is OK if it works for you. I had many years of Catholic school and learned the party line of the catechism. It was the black and white teachings of Catholic school that turned me away from the Church for a while. I’ve since come back, but I learned that you don’t have to buy the whole bag to have good faith and to be a good religious person. There are a few things from the Catechism that I don’t subscribe to because I cannot find concrete Biblical support for these points. I now call myself a Biblical Catholic more than a Roman Catholic–which means I regularly attend Catholic services but use the Bible for my final answer and not the Catechism. I have since found many things in the Good Book that I would have never learned by the CC alone. I encourage everybody to supplement regular mass attendance with sufficient Bible reading.
Seatuck – I am not trying to antagonize you or question your religious beliefs, its just that we seem to be coming from different ends of the spectrum…you seem to be more on the Puritan side of things, which is OK if it works for you. I had many years of Catholic school and learned the party line of the catechism. It was the black and white teachings of Catholic school that turned me away from the Church for a while. I’ve since come back, but I learned that you don’t have to buy the whole bag to have good faith and to be a good religious person. There are a few things from the Catechism that I don’t subscribe to because I cannot find concrete Biblical support for these points. I now call myself a Biblical Catholic more than a Roman Catholic–which means I regularly attend Catholic services but use the Bible for my final answer and not the Catechism. I have since found many things in the Good Book that I would have never learned by the CC alone. I encourage everybody to supplement regular mass attendance with sufficient Bible reading.
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