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GKC
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Shame on people who forget that.
GKC
GKC
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CMatt25
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Here’s the answer a Catholic bishop of the Roman rite gave me when I asked who can rightfully be called a Catholic: If somebody was baptized into the Catholic Church they are Catholic with possible distinctions of practicing and non practicing.
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Monster
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Were both as the church of England is both catholic and reformed. And most Anglicans on this site will consider themselves catholic as this is a catholic forum attracting catholic thinking anglicans to it. I consider myself both personally as I like ceremony and all the elaborate stuff but disagree with an English church being under papal jurisdiction and that some of the catholic churches conservative views are too right wing.
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Monster
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Boo!
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Monster
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You don’t have to be roman catholic to be catholic you know, plus all of the Anglicans I know are quite happy to stay Anglican and have no intention of converting and they’re high church.
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livingwordunity
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There are rites in communion with Rome but not “denominations”. Also, since “catholic” means “universal” there can logically only be one universal church. And since the church in Rome with all the rites in communion with her is the original one holy, catholic, and apostolic Church, Roman Catholics can just call ourselves catholic while others have to make a distinction since they are not the original catholic church.no we don’t call ourselves Catholic but we are catholicand in the ealier news letter the new priest classifies himself as progressive catholic because he changes with the modern world…
Many people on these boards do not know that catholic means universal and Catholic as
in Roman Catholic or the other 26 denominations is it that are within Rome - Catholic. Hence the confusion.
I think it don’t help when people just say they are Catholic because its that what adds to the confusion between Catholic and universally catholic. If Catholics were a little bit more stricter and referred to themelves as Roman Catholic or Byzantine Catholic rather than just Catholic new and long term Catholics alike would understand the difference a bit more because it be at the front of their mind.
Code:
“Ignatius… to the church also which holds the presidency in the place of the country of the Romans, worthy of God, worthy of honor, worthy of blessing, worthy of praise, worthy of success, worthy of sanctification, and, because you hold the presidency in love, named after Christ and named after the Father.”
—St. Ignatius of Antioch
Letter to the Romans, 1:1, A.D. 110
“It is possible, then, for every Church, who may wish to know the truth, to contemplate the tradition of the Apostles which has been made known throughout the whole world. And we are in a position to enumerate those who were instituted bishops by the Apostles, and their successors to our own times… But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the successions of all the Churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the successions of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient Church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious Apostles, Peter and Paul, that Church which has the tradition and the faith which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the Apostles. For with this Church, because of its superior origin, all Churches must agree, that is, all the faithful in the whole world; and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the Apostolic tradition.”
—St. Irenaeus
Against Heresies, 3, 3, 1-2, c. AD 190
“The Lord says to Peter: ‘I say to you,’ He says, ‘that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church’…On him He builds the Church, and to him He gives the command to feed the sheep; and although He assigns a like power to all the Apostles, yet He founded a single chair, and He established by His own authority a source and an intrinsic reason for that unity. Indeed, the others were that also which Peter was; but a primacy is given to Peter, whereby it is made clear that there is but one Church and one chair. So too, all are shepherds, and the flock is shown to be one, fed by all the Apostles in single-minded accord. If someone does not hold fast to this unity of Peter, can he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he desert the chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, can he still be confident that he is in the Church?”
—St. Cyprian of Carthage
The Unity of the Catholic Church, 1st edition, A.D. 251—St. Ambrose of Milan
On Penance, Book One, Ch. VII, v. 33, c. A.D. 390
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GKC
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ltwin
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I’ve heard Anglicanism classified as “Protestant, yet Catholic” and “Reformed Catholic.” I’ve also seen Anglicans use the phrase “evangelical faith and catholic order.” I’m assuming that “evangelical” is referring to the older meaning of that word that equates to “gospel truth” instead of the newer meaning that refers to American style evangelicalism.
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Nabooru
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Many Anglicans, and people outside Anglicanism, view it as a separate order of Christianity altogether.
There’s Catholic - Orthodox - Protestant - Anglican. It doesn’t fit neatly in any of the other categories. Some Anglicans view themselves as more Protestant, others identify more with Catholicism, and there is even a minority that prefers Orthodoxy. I personally have a bumper sticker on my car that says “Orthoanglocathlican”.
There’s Catholic - Orthodox - Protestant - Anglican. It doesn’t fit neatly in any of the other categories. Some Anglicans view themselves as more Protestant, others identify more with Catholicism, and there is even a minority that prefers Orthodoxy. I personally have a bumper sticker on my car that says “Orthoanglocathlican”.
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Kathryn_Ann
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Well done, and very quote-worthy, livingwordunity. I am copying this to my own files and thank you kindly. I think the phrase “wicked schism” says it all, in describing all but the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, the Church Christ Founded.
Kathryn Ann
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Contarini
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There are at least three possible views among Anglicans on this point:
- All Anglicans, of course, claim to be “Catholic” in the sense of “belonging to the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.” Some Anglicans interpret this in essentially the same way that other “classical Protestants” do. In other words, they are Catholics in the same way other Protestants are and claim nothing else.
- On the other end of the spectrum, some Anglicans do in fact claim to be Catholic, not Protestant. By this they mean that Anglicanism has apostolic succession, a valid Eucharist, and doctrines defined by the Creeds and Councils of the “undivided” Church. Of course these Anglicans must admit that Protestantism has in some way “infected” Anglicanism (given the existence of the first class of Anglicans I mentioned). But they themselves try to keep clear of the “infection” and regard it as something incidental, not essential to Anglicanism. (GKC can defend this position better than I can, because he actually believes it!)
- In the middle are a lot of folks who understand themselves as both Catholic and Protestant. Anglicanism is clearly Protestant in a historical sense, and our formularies have clearly been shaped by the Reformation. At the same time, we have preserved (at least that’s what we claim) the historic succession of bishops and our theological methodology privileges the Church Fathers and the testimony of the “undivided Church” generally. Christopher Wells, editor of the *Living Church *(generally identified as an “Anglo-Catholic” periodical) put this well in a meeting I attended a year or so ago, in which he said that Anglicanism’s existence is justified by its "ecumenical mission.’ In other words, our calling is to further the unity of the Church as a whole. We don’t simply turn our backs on Protestants as heretics who have abandoned the Church, but we witness to the fact that the Church didn’t begin with the Reformation.
Edwin
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SarahLM
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I remain Anglican because it appears to offer the best opportunity to bring people to the sacraments and let the Holy Spirit, through the graces of the sacraments, lead them into all truth.
What I find is most serious protestant Christians–even if they are attracted to catholic truth–are too involved in service to give it all up and plunge into the RCC. Most of her converts only convert because they want a common church and are marrying someone catholic.
I feel like the Elizabethan settlement–creating a place within a Church for both prot minded people and catholics–allows for people to grow into the fullness of catholic faith. Anglicanism has a pastoral patrimony of its own which allows it to truly reach the unchurched in a big way.
What I wonder is where the RCC’s understanding that the Eucharist should be a sign of unity of faith comes from?
What I find is most serious protestant Christians–even if they are attracted to catholic truth–are too involved in service to give it all up and plunge into the RCC. Most of her converts only convert because they want a common church and are marrying someone catholic.
I feel like the Elizabethan settlement–creating a place within a Church for both prot minded people and catholics–allows for people to grow into the fullness of catholic faith. Anglicanism has a pastoral patrimony of its own which allows it to truly reach the unchurched in a big way.
What I wonder is where the RCC’s understanding that the Eucharist should be a sign of unity of faith comes from?
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Kathryn_Ann
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Dear SarahLM,:angel1:
I’m so glad you are on this forum. I’m a former Episcopalian who converted in 2004.
You may already be well aware that The Holy Father is now working, through his newly created** Personal Ordinariate of The Chair of St. Peter**, to welcome, in a very special way, thousands of Great Britain’s Anglican’s as well as many U.S. Episcopalians into the Catholic Church.
This dialogue began decades ago but is just now beginning to come to fruition.
There is a great longing for many to come Home to the Church Christ founded, The One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church which holds all truth, and was the only Church for over 1500 years.
**As to the Holy Eucharist, and how we believe, **here is a wonderful link that may answer some of your questions. catholicbible101.com/theeucharist.htm
For my part, it was not until I became Catholic that I realized the fullness of the Church in all Her Sacraments, that everything (and every one of the Saints) , all the teachings of the Magisterium,
the Catechism, all this pointed to the center of our Faith, Jesus Christ Present for us in the Blessed Sacrament.I can only say that I longed for that fullness which was the entire Church. And that we, as members of the Church, become Christ’s Bride in a special way. Christ is the Head, we the Church are the Body, the Bride. In the Catholic Church, there is also an emphasis on the Sacrament of Penance and Reconciliation, for example, which especially prepares one to receive Christ in Holy Eucharist with a fuller understanding.
Being outside of the Church was like trying to understand or describe a special light about it without being part of it. Once inside, it is completely different. One has to immerse oneself. A Protestant friend of mine converted too, just this past Easter. She had had experience in an “evangelical” church and was not at all satisfied with that. What a difference joy makes! Our discussion began with another link that fascinated her. I will include that here for you.
catholicbible101.com/whostartedyourchurch.htm
It was not until I was received into the Holy Church that I understood the wonderful, well -known phrase : “We consume Christ so that He consumes us.” Every saint, every martyr, all of history points to the moment on the Cross, and to the Resurrection hope. It is not that I feel in any way superior now that I am Catholic. It is that I understand that I need the entirety of every Sacrament to live fully for Christ. Without the fullness of the Church, Her history, Saints, Sacraments, Magisterium, Catechism, I would have to be my own guide, making my own interpretations take center stage. I cannot be that for myself. I need Christ’s Holy Church to guide me.
There is a special bond between Catholics, Anglicans and Episcopalians. Over time, I realized that I was longing for that full Communion that was only possible by the overwhelming joy of allowing that Divine Continuity to embrace me.
I do hope you will continue to post here on the forums. It’s a safe place to inquire, and I continue to learn so much here, being new in the faith myself.
Many blessings,
Kathryn Ann:heaven:
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liturgyluver
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Kathryn Ann, to say that thousands of British Catholics have joined the Ordinariate is an exageration; a grand total of just over 900 joined, and if you strip away converts who have left us and become Anglican, the net movement is less than 500. Unfortunately the ordinariate is already in financial difficulty.
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Kathryn_Ann
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Oh, please have some hope!:angel1: Actually, I see in this link that over 1400 in Great Britain have asked to join, but with over 77 million Anglicans, let them all come if they will. They are welcome.
usatoday.com/news/religion/story/2012-01-01/vatican-anglicans/52321430/1
I have no worries of any financial difficulties, as the Holy Spirit is above all that. There are others in the U.S. joining and last time I looked, there are more hearts all over the world longing for Communion with us. God is great!:heaven:
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BernadetteM
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The Ordinariates are very new and most Anglicans/TEC members are not aware that it exists.
There are more groups coming into the Church and priests. There is a new parish in So. California that just started 3 weeks ago. They use a Catholic Church and even without advertising, there have been several new people who are now attending.
If we all had the attitude that some seem to have, the Catholic Church would have died out within a very short time. The Church was also poor when the Apostles started establishing new churches.
I always wonder why some are always so negative when they really don’t have much knowledge about issues.
The Ordinariates will not only bring in former Anglicans, but also Protestants and lapsed Catholics who for whatever reason are looking for that “treasure” that the Anglican Patrimony will bring into the Church, as stated by our Holy Father, Pope Benedict.
I agree with the Holy Father and not the naysayers.
Yours in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary
Bernadette
There are more groups coming into the Church and priests. There is a new parish in So. California that just started 3 weeks ago. They use a Catholic Church and even without advertising, there have been several new people who are now attending.
If we all had the attitude that some seem to have, the Catholic Church would have died out within a very short time. The Church was also poor when the Apostles started establishing new churches.
I always wonder why some are always so negative when they really don’t have much knowledge about issues.
The Ordinariates will not only bring in former Anglicans, but also Protestants and lapsed Catholics who for whatever reason are looking for that “treasure” that the Anglican Patrimony will bring into the Church, as stated by our Holy Father, Pope Benedict.
I agree with the Holy Father and not the naysayers.
Yours in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary
Bernadette
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liturgyluver
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Bernadette, if your comments are referring to mine, let me say that I do know what I am talking about in relation to England which is why I had to correct Kathyrn Ann’s figures I have many Anglican friends and they are perfectly aware of the Ordinariate - I also know some people who have transferred across through the Ordinariate and have seen both their contentment with joining the Church and keeping elements of their rich liturgy, and their frustration with limited access to the Ordinariate mass. Yes, I hope it will prosper and grow too, but I was merely stating the facts.
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minkymurph
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‘Protestant’ church’s in my part of the world are sometimes referred to as ‘Reformed’ rather than ‘Protestant.’ However, today people do not call themselves ‘reformers.’ In my part of the world the term ‘Protestant’ became an umbrella term for any church that did not recognize the authority of Rome for historical reasons, and came to mean ‘not a Roman Catholic’ rather than to denote a particular religious tenet. There are people in my part of the world who would call themselves ‘Protestant,’ yet have not been baptized, do not attend church and some don’t even believe in God. The main reason for this is due to the fact we live in a divided society, and people are keen to identify themselves as ‘not Roman Catholic’ and in addition, ‘not Irish but British’ as religion here is intrinsically linked with National identity.
The main difference between the Church of England and the Roman Catholic Church is the Pope is not head of the Church - due to the fact Henry VII made himself head of the Church. However, Henry didn’t change much else and the faith essentially remained Catholic in nature, which displeased the more radical reformers. The Creed of the Church of Ireland, which is Anglican, is called the Apostles Creed and uses the term ‘Holy Catholic Church.’ The Church of Ireland is an offshoot of the Church of England which is Anglican. Hence, there is a difference between ‘Catholic’ and ‘Roman Catholic.’ There are of course other differences but that’s the gist of it.
There is also a difference between what is termed ‘High’ church and ‘Low’ church. The ‘High’ Anglican church focuses more on sacramentality, and is therefore closer theologically to Catholicism. The ‘Low’ church focuses more on the Word, and is closer theologically to Calvinism. The ‘Low’ church emerged after the death of Henry VII when his son Edward, whose theology was closer to Calvin’s than his father, implemented more ‘reforms.’ Consequently, there is a split in the Church of England, and it can be either ‘High’ or ‘Low’ depending on which tradition they follow. The Church of Ireland is not split between ‘High’ and ‘Low,’ but is a bit of mixture in that to an extent as it is influenced by Presbyterianism - the largest Protestant denomination in Ireland - and the more traditional Anglican Church in terms of sacramentality. They would call themselves ‘Protestant’ for the reasons I have mentioned above.
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Symphorian
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Kathryn Ann
The Ordinariate in Great Britain is The Personal Ordinariate of Our Lady of Walsingham not The Personal Ordinariate of The Chair of St Peter.
ordinariate.org.uk/
The British Ordinariate were given a grant of 1 million pounds by the Confraternity of the Blessed Sacrament, an Anglican charity. There was opposition to this and the Ordinariate has since returned the money.
churchtimes.co.uk/articles/2012/29-june/news/uk/ordinariate-pays-back-%C2%A31-million-to-anglican-charity
In my Church of England Diocese which has a long history of Anglo-Catholicism, only one church has entered the Ordinariate, even then only a third of the congregation converted with about 20 individuals and one new member joining over the past 12 months. They will not be adopting the Customary of Our Lady of Walsingham (the Anglican Use) but will continue to use the OF of the Roman Rite. So, not much Anglican patrimony as far as I can see for this particular group. There is already some incorporation of this Ordinariate group into the regular parish. The Ordinariate Priest has been made Priest in Charge of a regular Catholic parish some distance away and the Ordinariate group worship with the regular local parish in order to fulfill their obligation on certain Holy Days falling mid week.
I wonder about the future of the Ordinariate. It is early days as Bernadette says but I’m concerned that it will just end up dissolving into the regular parish system due to financial constraints or lack of Ordinariate clergy.
The Ordinariate in Great Britain is The Personal Ordinariate of Our Lady of Walsingham not The Personal Ordinariate of The Chair of St Peter.
ordinariate.org.uk/
The British Ordinariate were given a grant of 1 million pounds by the Confraternity of the Blessed Sacrament, an Anglican charity. There was opposition to this and the Ordinariate has since returned the money.
churchtimes.co.uk/articles/2012/29-june/news/uk/ordinariate-pays-back-%C2%A31-million-to-anglican-charity
In my Church of England Diocese which has a long history of Anglo-Catholicism, only one church has entered the Ordinariate, even then only a third of the congregation converted with about 20 individuals and one new member joining over the past 12 months. They will not be adopting the Customary of Our Lady of Walsingham (the Anglican Use) but will continue to use the OF of the Roman Rite. So, not much Anglican patrimony as far as I can see for this particular group. There is already some incorporation of this Ordinariate group into the regular parish. The Ordinariate Priest has been made Priest in Charge of a regular Catholic parish some distance away and the Ordinariate group worship with the regular local parish in order to fulfill their obligation on certain Holy Days falling mid week.
I wonder about the future of the Ordinariate. It is early days as Bernadette says but I’m concerned that it will just end up dissolving into the regular parish system due to financial constraints or lack of Ordinariate clergy.
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