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hdog
Guest
can animals commit sins? can they be cleansed of sin?
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F
FCEGM
Guest
No - and no.
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hdog
Guest
then animals go to heaven then right?
J
JaredR
Guest
Animals have material souls, which means they are not immortal. That doesn’t mean God couldn’t recreate animal souls in heaven though.
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FCEGM
Guest
This Rock magazine offers these insights on the topic (I apologize for my earlier abrupt reply to you.
)catholic.com/thisrock/quickquestions/keyword/creation
And a response:
catholic.com/thisrock/2001/0101ltrs.asp
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puppypatrol
Guest
My first question would have to be “Are you a student in my CCD class?” They just asked the same question a few weeks ago.
They don’t sin because they only do what God designed them to do. They do what we teach them to do. When a dog, for example, “goes wrong” it’s because they were taught to be that way by some not so smart person.
While I know that animals don’t have soul exactly like ours, I am not willing to put restrictions on what God can do. In the last 3 years I have lost 3 furbabies, 2 of my own ( a buff Cocker Spaniel and a pedigree challenged 1/2 mini Schnauzer/1/2 Boston Terrier) and my pastors Golden Retriever about 4 weeks ago. I have to believe that God is a loving God so the following poem is what I hold on to in my heart.
The Rainbow Bridge
inspired by a Norse legend
By the edge of a woods, at the foot of a hill,
Is a lush, green meadow where time stands still.
Where the friends of man and woman do run,
When their time on earth is over and done.
For here, between this world and the next,
Is a place where each beloved creature finds rest.
On this golden land, they wait and they play,
Till the Rainbow Bridge they cross over one day.
No more do they suffer, in pain or in sadness,
For here they are whole, their lives filled with gladness.
Their limbs are restored, their health renewed,
Their bodies have healed, with strength imbued.
They romp through the grass, without even a care,
Until one day they start, and sniff at the air.
All ears prick forward, eyes dart front and back,
Then all of a sudden, one breaks from the pack.
For just at that instant, their eyes have met;
Together again, both person and pet.
So they run to each other, these friends from long past,
The time of their parting is over at last.
The sadness they felt while they were apart,
Has turned into joy once more in each heart.
They embrace with a love that will last forever,
And then, side-by-side, they cross over… together.
My favorite T-shirt says “Dogs are God’s way of telling us He doesn’t want us to walk alone”
They don’t sin because they only do what God designed them to do. They do what we teach them to do. When a dog, for example, “goes wrong” it’s because they were taught to be that way by some not so smart person.
While I know that animals don’t have soul exactly like ours, I am not willing to put restrictions on what God can do. In the last 3 years I have lost 3 furbabies, 2 of my own ( a buff Cocker Spaniel and a pedigree challenged 1/2 mini Schnauzer/1/2 Boston Terrier) and my pastors Golden Retriever about 4 weeks ago. I have to believe that God is a loving God so the following poem is what I hold on to in my heart.
The Rainbow Bridge
inspired by a Norse legend
By the edge of a woods, at the foot of a hill,
Is a lush, green meadow where time stands still.
Where the friends of man and woman do run,
When their time on earth is over and done.
For here, between this world and the next,
Is a place where each beloved creature finds rest.
On this golden land, they wait and they play,
Till the Rainbow Bridge they cross over one day.
No more do they suffer, in pain or in sadness,
For here they are whole, their lives filled with gladness.
Their limbs are restored, their health renewed,
Their bodies have healed, with strength imbued.
They romp through the grass, without even a care,
Until one day they start, and sniff at the air.
All ears prick forward, eyes dart front and back,
Then all of a sudden, one breaks from the pack.
For just at that instant, their eyes have met;
Together again, both person and pet.
So they run to each other, these friends from long past,
The time of their parting is over at last.
The sadness they felt while they were apart,
Has turned into joy once more in each heart.
They embrace with a love that will last forever,
And then, side-by-side, they cross over… together.
My favorite T-shirt says “Dogs are God’s way of telling us He doesn’t want us to walk alone”
T
thistle
Guest
At the end of time only God knows what he has decided to do but as things stand now there are NO animals in Heaven.
Christ came to redeem and give the chance of salvation to humans, not animals. He did not preach to dogs and cats.
Only humans have spiritual souls which are immortal.
Animals have material souls which cease to exist when the animals die.
Christ came to redeem and give the chance of salvation to humans, not animals. He did not preach to dogs and cats.
Only humans have spiritual souls which are immortal.
Animals have material souls which cease to exist when the animals die.
S
StrawberryJam
Guest
The Platapus, and Zebras, and all the animals noah took onto the ark were the “saved” catholic animals because, we know Noah must have been able to get them all out safely… The rest, are damned to an eternity of death but no more pain or suffering than they had while alive.
I can not believe anyone worries about animals and their eternity when so many humans are right next to you that need help now. The animals get more attention than children these days. Its sick if you ask me. Not that anyone is.
I can not believe anyone worries about animals and their eternity when so many humans are right next to you that need help now. The animals get more attention than children these days. Its sick if you ask me. Not that anyone is.
D
DarkNight
Guest
I received a most interesting e-newsletter from Friar Jack, a Franciscan Friar, at AmericanCatholic.org.
As to the question of whether or not animals go to heaven, Friar Jack points out
… pay close attention to the whole passage of Eucharistic Prayer IV, where we hear this statement:
“Father, in your mercy grant also to us your children, to enter into our heavenly inheritance…
Then in your kingdom, freed from the corruption of sin and death, we shall sing your glory with every creature through Christ our Lord…”
and
Jesus tells his disciples: “Go into the whole world and proclaim the gospel to every creature” (Mark 16:15).
Mark does not say “to every human being” but “to every creature.”
Jesus’ choice of words indicates that he wants the gospel message to have a saving impact upon* the whole family of creation**, *and not simply upon the human family.
The words of Eucharistic Prayer IV indicate that the Catholic Church does believe that all His creatures will partake in His heavenly glory.
At the very least, we should not discount the possibility nor think of it as some sort of abomination.
Go with Love, Go with God
As to the question of whether or not animals go to heaven, Friar Jack points out
… pay close attention to the whole passage of Eucharistic Prayer IV, where we hear this statement:
“Father, in your mercy grant also to us your children, to enter into our heavenly inheritance…
Then in your kingdom, freed from the corruption of sin and death, we shall sing your glory with every creature through Christ our Lord…”
and
Jesus tells his disciples: “Go into the whole world and proclaim the gospel to every creature” (Mark 16:15).
Mark does not say “to every human being” but “to every creature.”
Jesus’ choice of words indicates that he wants the gospel message to have a saving impact upon* the whole family of creation**, *and not simply upon the human family.
(note: Italics and bolding are mine. I don’t have a link to the full e-newsletter as it has not yet been archived)
The words of Eucharistic Prayer IV indicate that the Catholic Church does believe that all His creatures will partake in His heavenly glory.
At the very least, we should not discount the possibility nor think of it as some sort of abomination.
Go with Love, Go with God
S
StrawberryJam
Guest
Reading too much into this perhaps? Angels are referred to as creatures.
I think if you make the language like a rubber band (as I believe christians do) then anything goes!
R
RosalieM
Guest
Of course animals cannot sin. Only we humans can do that.
As for them going to heaven; I’m with the Franciscans…and especially with Fr. Benedict Groeschel who said:
“Anything that is good and beautiful and gives you joy on this earth will be with you in heaven.”
God can do anything. As was posted, God can recreate the material souls of animals if He wishes. And we most certainly can pray to Him to have our beloved pets with us in heaven. I do.
I too am a fan of the “Rainbow Bridge”. I love my critters. St. Francis preached to them and really communicated with them. I believe this with all my heart; no matter what skeptics may say. To quote William Blake: (and I say this to my little cat often)
Little Lamb, who made thee
Does thou know who made thee
Gave thee life and bid thee feed.
By the stream and o’er the mead;
Gave thee clothing of delight,
Softest clothing wooly bright;
Gave thee such a tender voice,
Making all the vales rejoice;
Little Lamb who made thee
Does thou know who made thee.
Little Lamb, I’ll tell thee,
Little Lamb I’ll tell thee;
He is called by thy name,
For he calls himself a Lamb;
He is meek and he is mild,
He became a little child
I a child and thou a lamb,
We are called by His name,
Little Lamb God bless thee,
Little Lamb God bless thee.
I have to unsubscribe to this thread after my post; because I cannot bicker about such things back and forth. Not only do I believe my beloved animals will be with me for eternity; but I believe we’ll be able to communicate in the presence of St. Francis.
And Heaven is unimaginabley even much more than that! I am so grateful to God for his beloved creatures!
As for them going to heaven; I’m with the Franciscans…and especially with Fr. Benedict Groeschel who said:
“Anything that is good and beautiful and gives you joy on this earth will be with you in heaven.”
God can do anything. As was posted, God can recreate the material souls of animals if He wishes. And we most certainly can pray to Him to have our beloved pets with us in heaven. I do.
I too am a fan of the “Rainbow Bridge”. I love my critters. St. Francis preached to them and really communicated with them. I believe this with all my heart; no matter what skeptics may say. To quote William Blake: (and I say this to my little cat often)
Little Lamb, who made thee
Does thou know who made thee
Gave thee life and bid thee feed.
By the stream and o’er the mead;
Gave thee clothing of delight,
Softest clothing wooly bright;
Gave thee such a tender voice,
Making all the vales rejoice;
Little Lamb who made thee
Does thou know who made thee.
Little Lamb, I’ll tell thee,
Little Lamb I’ll tell thee;
He is called by thy name,
For he calls himself a Lamb;
He is meek and he is mild,
He became a little child
I a child and thou a lamb,
We are called by His name,
Little Lamb God bless thee,
Little Lamb God bless thee.
I have to unsubscribe to this thread after my post; because I cannot bicker about such things back and forth. Not only do I believe my beloved animals will be with me for eternity; but I believe we’ll be able to communicate in the presence of St. Francis.
And Heaven is unimaginabley even much more than that! I am so grateful to God for his beloved creatures!
D
DarkNight
Guest
[SIGN][/SIGN]
He pointed out that in Eucharistic Prayer IV, after the consecration, the priest does in fact proclaim “… we shall sing your glory with every creature through Christ our Lord.”
Not just humans. Not just these creatures but not those.
Every creature.
So in answer too your question, no I don’t think too much is being read into this.
To say it does not mean every creature is in itself rubber banding the language, stretching it to fit only what one wants it to fit.
I personally believe too little is read into the words of Jesus.
Father Richard Rohr points out that everything Jesus said was important, every minor detail had meaning. He constantly used parables with subtle nuances.
I agree that “rubber banding” language blurs the meaning and does a disservice to all (what does the term “love” mean when it is used to describe that one likes a candy bar!).
But demanding only a specific interpretation also does a disservice by eliminating the beauty inherent in the nuances of a language.
Go with Love, Go with God
What interested me was that the commentary was made by a Franciscan Friar.
He pointed out that in Eucharistic Prayer IV, after the consecration, the priest does in fact proclaim “… we shall sing your glory with every creature through Christ our Lord.”
Not just humans. Not just these creatures but not those.
Every creature.
So in answer too your question, no I don’t think too much is being read into this.
To say it does not mean every creature is in itself rubber banding the language, stretching it to fit only what one wants it to fit.
I personally believe too little is read into the words of Jesus.
Father Richard Rohr points out that everything Jesus said was important, every minor detail had meaning. He constantly used parables with subtle nuances.
I agree that “rubber banding” language blurs the meaning and does a disservice to all (what does the term “love” mean when it is used to describe that one likes a candy bar!).
But demanding only a specific interpretation also does a disservice by eliminating the beauty inherent in the nuances of a language.
Go with Love, Go with God
C
creationlover
Guest
With the way industry treats animals for our mere pleasure with little to no regard for God’s creation, I’m thankful there are a few Christians who are both Pro Life and Pro Creation. As far as being concerned about whether animals go to heaven, it seems to me to merely reflect a desire to enjoy in the new earth what God has given us here right now. To hope that a dog, tree or rock is in heaven just doesn’t seem so sick to me.
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thistle
Guest
Humans MUST always come before animals. Money should be spent on easing the suffering of the poor people in the world and not spent on animals. They are not equal to people.
S
StrawberryJam
Guest
Excellent point Dark Knight, I will have to agree with you there.
Thistle, you said it better than I could.
Still learning, and finding more and more points where I can connect here.
Thistle, you said it better than I could.
Still learning, and finding more and more points where I can connect here.
C
creationlover
Guest
Yes, Humans MUST always come before animals. Animals are not equal to humans. In my opinion, many have such a low regard for animals no one seems to think God really cares if they are tortured and mutilated for our mere pleasure. He knows how many hairs are on our heads; yet the Father also knows when every sparrow drops to the ground. I affirm, Jesus says we are of more value than the sparrows. But He also says the Father knows when every sparrow drops to the ground, while we on the other hand could care less about His creatures and how they are treated. Hence some tend to think of it as “childish” to ponder over whether they will be in heaven. Society in general, my opinion, doesn’t grant animals the importance they actually have as creatures of God, and what is really sad, is that neither do many Christians.
To be Pro Life/Pro Creation doesn’t necessitate seeing animals as equals.
But back to topic, no they cannot sin. Whether they will be in the eschaton or not, I don’t think we really know.
S
StrawberryJam
Guest
Society, in my opinion gives way too much value on animals than humans. Take your phone book, or go to your chamber of commerce site, and see how many services are availiable for animals and what people spend on their animals (look at animal spas, and other really obnoxious things, like people leaving their animals their net worth)
But, I respect and support decent treatment of all, the unborn and the born humans, and the animals (in that order)
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peary
Guest
No because they do not possess neither free will nor self-reflective thought.
S
Sailor_Kenshin
Guest
I’m not sure we can say with authority who or what (apart from saints and angels!) there is in Heaven.
J
Jan_Bolbot
Guest
It is impossible to say who or what is in heaven, but I attempted to respond to this question previously here:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=5195343#post5195343
The reason I re-post it is because I don’t classify dogs as simply animals. Rather, they are sub-creations.
In other words, an alligator is an animal. It fundamentally unchanged from when it first appeared on earth. This is not so for dogs. Dogs were created by humans, they exist symbiotically with humans. The genetic record is quite clear on this. If people had never existed there would still (conceivably) be alligators, but not dogs.
So the question I pose is not do dogs go to heaven but whether subcreations go to heaven. Legitimate sub-creations are made for the good and directly or indirectly the greater glory of God–great works of art and literature are the most obvious examples. Dogs were perhaps our first and greatest subcreation and I cannot imagine a loving God being displeased with them and excluding them from heaven.
I also argue that dogs do in fact have emotions and some level of self aware, though not nearly at the level of humans. Dogs can be very sensitive to human emotions and respond to them appropriately. For example, if someone in our family is crying our German shepherd will nuzzle and lick that person’s face. These are very, very simple things and no where on a par with the complexity of human emotions and thoughts, but they do exist.
Animals cannot sin because they are exempt from original sin as well the rationality and self-awareness of being human. They do not need to absolved of anything as a result.
jb
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=5195343#post5195343
The reason I re-post it is because I don’t classify dogs as simply animals. Rather, they are sub-creations.
In other words, an alligator is an animal. It fundamentally unchanged from when it first appeared on earth. This is not so for dogs. Dogs were created by humans, they exist symbiotically with humans. The genetic record is quite clear on this. If people had never existed there would still (conceivably) be alligators, but not dogs.
So the question I pose is not do dogs go to heaven but whether subcreations go to heaven. Legitimate sub-creations are made for the good and directly or indirectly the greater glory of God–great works of art and literature are the most obvious examples. Dogs were perhaps our first and greatest subcreation and I cannot imagine a loving God being displeased with them and excluding them from heaven.
I also argue that dogs do in fact have emotions and some level of self aware, though not nearly at the level of humans. Dogs can be very sensitive to human emotions and respond to them appropriately. For example, if someone in our family is crying our German shepherd will nuzzle and lick that person’s face. These are very, very simple things and no where on a par with the complexity of human emotions and thoughts, but they do exist.
Animals cannot sin because they are exempt from original sin as well the rationality and self-awareness of being human. They do not need to absolved of anything as a result.
jb
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