can animals sin?

[DarkNight]

Why “sub-creations” but not His creations?

I know that the animals who have come into my life all have personalities.
I have to assume that all animals have personalities.
(not that I would get familiar enough with alligators to recognize the differences but I have read that they are wonderful parents)

Scientists are continually amazed at how many traits, originally used to distinguish humans from animals, that they are finding in animals.
It has been determined that whales have a sense of society for instance.
Dolphins are highly intelligent.
Elephants mourn their dead.

Animals, both wild and domesticated, have taught me much about life and love and God - as long as I am willing to listen.

Which is why I believe in the Eucharist Prayer IV
Then in your kingdom, freed from the corruption of sin and death, we shall sing your glory* with every creature** through Christ our Lord…"*

 

[Digitonomy]

In other words, an alligator is an animal. It fundamentally unchanged from when it first appeared on earth. This is not so for dogs. Dogs were created by humans, they exist symbiotically with humans. The genetic record is quite clear on this. If people had never existed there would still (conceivably) be alligators, but not dogs.

So the question I pose is not do dogs go to heaven but whether subcreations go to heaven.

That’s a curious approach. How about other organisms that have been specially bred or otherwise genetically modified? Chickens with large breasts, herbicide-resistant corn, bacteria that produce insulin. Will these subcreations also go to heaven?

 

[Jan_Bolbot]

Why “sub-creations” but not His creations?

I know that the animals who have come into my life all have personalities.
I have to assume that all animals have personalities.
(not that I would get familiar enough with alligators to recognize the differences but I have read that they are wonderful parents)

Scientists are continually amazed at how many traits, originally used to distinguish humans from animals, that they are finding in animals.
It has been determined that whales have a sense of society for instance.
Dolphins are highly intelligent.
Elephants mourn their dead.

Animals, both wild and domesticated, have taught me much about life and love and God - as long as I am willing to listen.

Which is why I believe in the Eucharist Prayer IV
Then in your kingdom, freed from the corruption of sin and death, we shall sing your glory* with every creature*** through Christ our Lord…"

Sub-creation is a term coined I think by JRR Tolkien the great Catholic author. God creates ex nihilo (pardon my poor Latin)–that is, from nothing. Humans sub-create, that is they take what God has given them and make something of it. The Michaelangelo’s Sistine Chapel was not created by God, but from the elements of God’s creation (colors, paint, the skill of the artist’s hands and eyes).

Dogs are not merely domesticated, they are sub-created by people. Dogs seem to have a genetic “program” to respond to people. Wolves raised from birth by humans respond very differently. Dogs pay close attention to humans, wolves raised by humans from birth pay far less attention.

I can’t speak to the question of dolphins and elephants. God created many marvelous creatures that testify to His greatness. It is not a question of the overall intelligence of a species but how they came about. God gave people the ability to (sub-)create for His greater glory.

jb

 

[Jan_Bolbot]

That’s a curious approach. How about other organisms that have been specially bred or otherwise genetically modified? Chickens with large breasts, herbicide-resistant corn, bacteria that produce insulin. Will these subcreations also go to heaven?

A very valid point. I can’t claim to know with any certainty if I will go to heaven, whether great works of art will be in heaven, or whether dogs will be heaven. I merely tried to raise what I think is an interesting issue.

The first threshold is whether a sub-creation is made for the greater glory of God. So we can exclude all sub-creations that distort or harm God’s handiwork.

Since there will be no diabetes we can probably exclude the need for insulin-producing bacteria.

The items you listed are created for a specific, narrow purpose–to solve a problem. They are perfectly valid subcreations. Bateria that produce insulin bring help and comfort to many people. Herbicide-resistant corn allows more food production and may alleviate hunger and malnutrition.

Dogs were not created with single purpose in mind. Nor were they planned by a single person or a small group of people. Dogs in early human societies served a wide range of roles. They helped in hunting, protection against wild animals, companionship, they carried burdens (Indians in historical times did this), and were even a source of food if times got tough. Dogs were an important element in early human societies being successful and surviving. (We easily forget how marginal was the existence of our ancestors and how close to extinction small bands of hunter-gatherers were in purely biological terms.) It is impossible to say what human history would have looked like without dogs, but we certainly would not have developed as fast as we did. We needed dogs in a way that we do not need herbicide resistant corn. Therefore the relationship is symbiotic–both sides derive benefit. Dogs helped humans achieve the civilizational complexity needed to be receptive to God’s revelation in history. Obviously, they were not the only factor in this development, but in this sense, I think we can say that dogs furthered God’s work on earth.

Again, whether dogs or corn are heaven is not my place to say but I raise the question this way because dogs are fundamentally unique.

jb

 

[DarkNight]

Dogs seem to have a genetic “program” to respond to people.

My personal experience with animals, both domestic & wild, is that they all respond to humans if only the human will “listen” for the response.
Humans are too often caught up in the need to control.
They are afraid of most animals. So they don’t “listen” to animals. They refuse to learn from them.
Even though animals, God’s creations, are willing to show us so very much.

It seems to me that you are reaching for a reason to put dogs a step above the rest of the animal kingdom and nature.
I’ve come to believe that man’s biggest problem is that we rank ourselves outside & above nature.
When in fact we are an integral part of nature.

I personally believe that all creatures go to heaven (even the nsulin-producing bacteria.)
This belief causes me to think twice when doing something with any of God’s creations.

Go with Love, Go with God

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

Society, in my opinion gives way too much value on animals than humans. Take your phone book, or go to your chamber of commerce site, and see how many services are availiable for animals and what people spend on their animals (look at animal spas, and other really obnoxious things, like people leaving their animals their net worth)

But, I respect and support decent treatment of all, the unborn and the born humans, and the animals (in that order)

A society that forbids the shooting of dangerous animals, yet murders unborn humans, is collectively insane.

 

[StrawberryJam]

A society that forbids the shooting of dangerous animals, yet murders unborn humans, is collectively insane.

We are very dissapointing, collectively as humans. But, we can decide to take a good look at ourselves, and determine that we have a long long way to go if there is still an elective procedure for the killing of an unborn human.

I think the role believers must play in this, is to personally stop having abortions themselves. The numbers are stunning I have seen. Catholic or Protestant. Terrible.

It is happening, and I hope something is being done to prevent it, because I know a few priests that talked girls out of having abortions, that had parents that forced them to go ahead with them. They suffer emotional distress over these things. Priests don’t have an easy job at all from what I can see.

 

[Jan_Bolbot]

It seems to me that you are reaching for a reason to put dogs a step above the rest of the animal kingdom and nature.
I’ve come to believe that man’s biggest problem is that we rank ourselves outside & above nature.
When in fact we are an integral part of nature.

Sorry but I cannot agree.

First, this is not my conclusion it is what the scholarly research on dogs has demonstrated–they are genetically “programmed” to respond to humans.

Here is a somewhat amusing story on this which nevertheless cites legitimate research:
dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1234568/How-dogs-mans-better-friend-Canines-outclass-cats-whisker-best-pet-test.html

Second, we are set apart from the rest of nature, though we are biological creatures and we have natural impulses. This can be demonstrated on several levels. We are after all self-conscious and capable of higher order thought and reasoning which other creatures are simply not. Then of course there is the Book of Genesis which is quite explicit on this matter. The most significant part is where God gives to man the ability to name the animals. To name something gives power over it, though prior to the fall this power is expressed as love and good stewardship rather than control and dominance. We are to make use of creation for God’s glory and our salvation, but as good and wise stewards not exploiters.

I do think dogs are different from other animals because of their very long relationship with us. There is no other creature that so responds to us and does so much for us. Seeing eye dogs help the disabled live better lives, herd and protect sheep and cattle for ranchers and shepherds, rescue dogs locate injured people in collapsed buildings after earthquakes, dogs sniff out bombs and drugs, find missing children, and police dogs bring down dangerous criminals and will often without hesistation give their lives to protect the human police officers they assist (there are many examples of this). There is simply no other animal like that.

jb

 

[puppypatrol]

The greatness of a nation and it’s moral progress can be judged by the way it’s animals are treated. Ghandi

A person or nation that would mistreat their animals will mistreat their people. That is a proven fact. That is why a majority of humans show substantial disrespect towards other humans and they practiced on animals. God expects us to show respect for animals and care for them. That was why he put them in our care. (stewardship) We need to take seriously the job God gave us.

Since they don’t make the choice of how they live their lives, don’t they deserve more consideration that a person who chooses to be, for example, unemployed, uneducated, etc…

Humans are important but so are our animals. Especially when they have been faithful companions, more times than not, more faithful than any human friend would consider being.

 

[creationlover]

The greatness of a nation and it’s moral progress can be judged by the way it’s animals are treated. Ghandi

A person or nation that would mistreat their animals will mistreat their people. That is a proven fact. That is why a majority of humans show substantial disrespect towards other humans and they practiced on animals. God expects us to show respect for animals and care for them. That was why he put them in our care. (stewardship) We need to take seriously the job God gave us.

Agreed.

Since they don’t make the choice of how they live their lives, don’t they deserve more consideration that a person who chooses to be, for example, unemployed, uneducated, etc…

I respectfully disagree. The worst murderer in the world is in the made in the image of God, and we must do everything we can to show him/her the love of God, and that includes giving him more consideration than an animal when called for.

Humans are important but so are our animals. Especially when they have been faithful companions, more times than not, more faithful than any human friend would consider being.

You are right, they are often more faithful than humans, sad to say. It is an instinctual natural love, but a love that reflects the character of God in a small but signficant way. I agree with you, we don’t give animals the importance they deserve, overall speaking.

 

[creationlover]

[Second, we are set apart from the rest of nature, though we are biological creatures and we have natural impulses. This can be demonstrated on several levels. We are after all self-conscious and capable of higher order thought and reasoning which other creatures are simply not. Then of course there is the Book of Genesis which is quite explicit on this matter. The most significant part is where God gives to man the ability to name the animals. To name something gives power over it, though prior to the fall this power is expressed as love and good stewardship rather than control and dominance. We are to make use of creation for God’s glory and our salvation, but as good and wise stewards not exploiters.

[COLOR=“Blue”]Amen!
I do think dogs are different from other animals because of their very long relationship with us. There is no other creature that so responds to us and does so much for us. Seeing eye dogs help the disabled live better lives, herd and protect sheep and cattle for ranchers and shepherds, rescue dogs locate injured people in collapsed buildings after earthquakes, dogs sniff out bombs and drugs, find missing children, and police dogs bring down dangerous criminals and will often without hesistation give their lives to protect the human police officers they assist (there are many examples of this). There is simply no other animal like that.

jb

Don’t you think that is because we have not give a chance for other animals to prove themselves in different roles? I hear pigs and rats are supposed to be pretty smart and quite faithful, maybe more than dogs. Other cultures don’t give dogs the same status we do.

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

The greatness of a nation and it’s moral progress can be judged by the way it’s animals are treated. Ghandi

A person or nation that would mistreat their animals will mistreat their people. That is a proven fact. That is why a majority of humans show substantial disrespect towards other humans and they practiced on animals. God expects us to show respect for animals and care for them. That was why he put them in our care. (stewardship) We need to take seriously the job God gave us.

Since they don’t make the choice of how they live their lives, don’t they deserve more consideration that a person who chooses to be, for example, unemployed, uneducated, etc…

Humans are important but so are our animals. Especially when they have been faithful companions, more times than not, more faithful than any human friend would consider being.

That may be, but God gave us DOMINION over the earth, animals included. We are not to equate them with humans.

Human life trumps animal life, every time.

 

[StrawberryJam]

Adam had not only dominion, but the ability to name the animals if one really believes that. Just as some believe all the animals were taken on to the Ark by Noah.

 

[Jan_Bolbot]

Don’t you think that is because we have not give a chance for other animals to prove themselves in different roles? I hear pigs and rats are supposed to be pretty smart and quite faithful, maybe more than dogs. Other cultures don’t give dogs the same status we do.

No, dogs are unique. Perhaps if we lived with rats and pigs for 10,000 years as domesticates, but still dogs are uniquely “keyed” to humans and you can’t really imagine a seeing-eye rat or a pig bringing down a fleeing bank robber.

Dogs have a higher functional vocabulary than chimps (smarter breeds can respond to over 200 words). Dogs are also closely attuned to human emotions in ways no other species can be.

This is marvel of God’s creation, all things have a unique purpose. Pigs are yummy and good at finding truffles. Rats are…well, they also have a purpose. God allowed humans to sub-create dogs to be with us and to help in ways no other species can. They are the closest creature to us in the animal kingdom in the best sense.

jb

 

[RosaryCrusader]

Not only do animals not have an immortal soul but animals can neither sin nor merit. They serve a utilitarian purpose.

The theological implications of animals going to Heaven would turn the Church and all her teachings upside down. If such were the case here’s a few points for pondering:

*If dogs go to Heaven then it would’ve been better to be born a dog than a human.

*God tests all of His creations so if there’s dogs in Heaven then contrarily there are also dogs in hell.

*The relationship between God and a soul is biblically described as spousal. Man is the only creature made in God’s image and likeness thus we are compatible for union with God. Since Heaven is the ultimate union with God, for which man was created, then by saying that there are dogs in Heaven is to say that God wills to unite Himself in a spousal relationship with a dog which is blasphemous.

*If animals are capable of attaining the beatific vision then clearly the inherent dignity and respect that a human enjoys by Divine right would also apply to animals. Therefore the 5th commandment would apply to not only humans but to animals. Therefore eating meat is truly murder as the animal rights folks preach.

*If animals can go to Heaven then you can’t stop at just dogs or the more advanced life forms but must be applied to all life - the lower animal life as well as the vegetative life forms. There’s going to be an infinite number of ants in Heaven.

As for maybe “different” dogs re-created in Heaven - I don’t think such as thing would be likely since St. Paul says “Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither hath it entered into the heart of man, what things God hath prepared for them that love him.”.

 

[CatholicGuy22]

can animals commit sins? can they be cleansed of sin?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

no!

 

[Digitonomy]

The theological implications of animals going to Heaven would turn the Church and all her teachings upside down. If such were the case here’s a few points for pondering:

Did you come up with that off the top of your head? That’s a remarkably good list of interesting points.

*If dogs go to Heaven then it would’ve been better to be born a dog than a human.

Only if all dogs go to heaven. If some or most of them end up as hellhounds, then all we can say is that it would’ve been better to be a dog going to heaven than a human going to hell. I’m not sure that’s contrary to any Church teaching.

*If animals are capable of attaining the beatific vision then clearly the inherent dignity and respect that a human enjoys by Divine right would also apply to animals. Therefore the 5th commandment would apply to not only humans but to animals. Therefore eating meat is truly murder as the animal rights folks preach.

Perhaps just certain types of meat.

*If animals can go to Heaven then you can’t stop at just dogs

Your sentence implies that the reason you can’t stop at just dogs is because animals can go to heaven. That makes no sense.

RosaryCrusader:

As for maybe “different” dogs re-created in Heaven - I don’t think such as thing would be likely since St. Paul says “Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither hath it entered into the heart of man, what things God hath prepared for them that love him.”.

So you’re suggesting that not only will Sparky not make it to heaven, but no dalmatians at all will make it. Instead, there will be entirely new breeds unknown to the American Kennel Club.

 

[creationlover]

No, dogs are unique. Perhaps if we lived with rats and pigs for 10,000 years as domesticates, but still dogs are uniquely “keyed” to humans and you can’t really imagine a seeing-eye rat or a pig bringing down a fleeing bank robber.

The seeing eye-rat might get killed at a busy intersection, but I could see a good strong boar chasing down a bank robber.