can any Jewish People please answer

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Hello there are 7 books taken out of the protestant bible (Tobias, Judith, Wisdom, Ecclesiasticus/Sirach, Baruch, I Maccabees, and II Maccabees.) These were taken out by Martin Luther in the 16th C. Can someone who is Jewish Please let me know if these are in the Torah, Or if they were used at all. And why they aren’t in there if they aren’t.

Thank You
 
mommiesquid said:
Hello there are 7 books taken out of the protestant bible (Tobias, Judith, Wisdom, Ecclesiasticus/Sirach, Baruch, I Maccabees, and II Maccabees.) These were taken out by Martin Luther in the 16th C. Can someone who is Jewish Please let me know if these are in the Torah, Or if they were used at all. And why they aren’t in there if they aren’t.

Thank You
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Im not jewish but I know the answer is NO.

The Torah is the first 5 books of the old testament.

What I want to know is what these books have to do with Judaism.
 
mommiesquid said:
Hello there are 7 books taken out of the protestant bible (Tobias, Judith, Wisdom, Ecclesiasticus/Sirach, Baruch, I Maccabees, and II Maccabees.) These were taken out by Martin Luther in the 16th C. Can someone who is Jewish Please let me know if these are in the Torah, Or if they were used at all. And why they aren’t in there if they aren’t.

Thank You
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macabees and II Macabees are not part of the Jewish Canon of scripture. Neither is Tobias or Judith (unless we have them under a different name). The book of Wisdom was known by Jews (Mamonimedes mentions it, but it is not part of the Canon. We do use Ecclesisticus, but I believe that is the only one.
 
AgnosTheist said:
but did jews themselves see any religious value in any of these books?
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Purely guessing here, but I would imagine they did. I’m assuming you haven’t read Maccabees. The main theme of the book is how the remnant of Jews who still held to the Law had God on their side helping them as they tried to turn Israel back to true worship. The same theme that is repeated throughout the OT. Whether or not they actually did see religious value in these books I don’t know. However, the value is there.
 
I’ve been wrong before, but I think that the issue is that these works only existed in the Greek and had no counterpart in Hebrew after the Babylonian Exile. At some point, the Jewish folks decided that they should be set aside as Scripture, though some were kept for non-religious reasons. If I am not mistaken, the story of Chunnika (sp?) was in Maccabees.
 
ralphinal said:
I’ve been wrong before, but I think that the issue is that these works only existed in the Greek and had no counterpart in Hebrew after the Babylonian Exile. At some point, the Jewish folks decided that they should be set aside as Scripture, though some were kept for non-religious reasons. If I am not mistaken, the story of Chunnika (sp?) was in Maccabees.
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1Maccabees was originally written in Hebrew

2 Maccabees was written in Greek

Judith is thought to be Hebrew or Aramaic composition

Tobit is uncertain. There are schools of thought supporting Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek.
 
Remember that modern Rabinic Judaism comes from the Tanaitic Judaism and that comes from the Pharisees.

The TANAK uses the Pharisees canon who was based on Rabbi Hillel list of books plus some books that the Pharisees incorporate late on councils. The last event at Yabnè shul (Jammia) in 90AD.

Christianity comes more from the Essenes plus the teaching of Jesus and the Apostles and anyone who have read the Dead Sea Scrolls can figure out.
The Canon of both Jewish sects was different. Most probably the Essenes had a open canon that was growing even in Jesus times.
Ben Sirach and Wisdom were commented by Rabbis extensively until Yabnè. Read the Wikipedia articles on those books for example.
 
well thank you guys for the information. I’m still kind of lost. But I apprecaite the time you took
 
I was born and raised Jewish. The Torah is what Christians call the Pentateuch. However, the other books, as has been well explained above, came from different Jewish traditions. They never formed part of the Canon of Jewish scripture, as did none of the books in the OT, such as Psalms.

That being said, their content has often been referenced by different Jewish tradtions and rabbinical writers and theologians. Jewish theologians do not discount them as Luther did. Often one will find parallelisms in the Talmud that tie in with these books.

They certainly do contain a great deal of revelation that is found in the Torah and the Talmud, even though the Talmud is not part of the Bible. It is more of a guide on how to live according to Jewish spirituality. Much of the Talmud is found in the Gospels and later Christian writings.

After so many hundreds of years, it’s almost like a salad. We have the Torah, but we have so many other holy works from which we draw revealed truths that at times it’s difficult to tell them apart.

JR 🙂
 
JReducation said:
I was born and raised Jewish. The Torah is what Christians call the Pentateuch. However, the other books, as has been well explained above, came from different Jewish traditions. They never formed part of the Canon of Jewish scripture, as did none of the books in the OT, such as Psalms.

That being said, their content has often been referenced by different Jewish tradtions and rabbinical writers and theologians. Jewish theologians do not discount them as Luther did. Often one will find parallelisms in the Talmud that tie in with these books.

They certainly do contain a great deal of revelation that is found in the Torah and the Talmud, even though the Talmud is not part of the Bible. It is more of a guide on how to live according to Jewish spirituality. Much of the Talmud is found in the Gospels and later Christian writings.

After so many hundreds of years, it’s almost like a salad. We have the Torah, but we have so many other holy works from which we draw revealed truths that at times it’s difficult to tell them apart.

JR 🙂
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It is a mistake to say that nothing in the “OT” or psalms formed part of the Jewish Scripture. While they are not part of the Torah, which is indeed only the 5 books of Moses, Psalms, prophets and other writings are indeed part of Jewish scriptures. The entire collection is known as the Tanach.
 
Valke2 said:
It is a mistake to say that nothing in the “OT” or psalms formed part of the Jewish Scripture. While they are not part of the Torah, which is indeed only the 5 books of Moses, Psalms, prophets and other writings are indeed part of Jewish scriptures. The entire collection is known as the Tanach.
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Valke, you are right. I should have said the Torah. Thanks for the correction.

JR 🙂
 
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